Russian wins WWI

WI instead of focusing upon Germany first in the Eastern Front, Russia decided upon a general defense of the German-Russian border, and focused on getting rid of Austro-Hungary first? I tend to think it may work in Russia's favor in the long run. The Eastern Front had more space to move about in, and seriously forcing the Germans, and AH onto a defense early into the war would be a good move which plays into Russia's numerical strength.
 

Jasen777

Donor
Wouldn't Germany be happy with that given their strategy? (Though not if Austria is in seriously danger obviously).
 
Wouldn't Germany be happy with that given their strategy? (Though not if Austria is in seriously danger obviously).

Right but what occurs on the Western front makes the quick defeat of France unlikely. So add to that a focus upon taking out Austria, which given their actions alone may well cause greater damage to the chaos which was the Balkans at that time. Throw in Romania perhaps having better odds when they join in the war, plus Italy and Austria is in serious danger. Once more I see Austria perhaps falling, or its capital taken by such a move.
 

MrP

Banned
Russia did focus on Austria as opposed to Germany. The lion's share of her army went to the invasion of A-H and was wildly successful - for a Great War offensive, anyway. The only change here is to have the armies in Poland sit on the defensive. You'll have to change French policy here, too. Franco-Russian military planning (by about '12, IIRC) rested on the principle that Germany could not possibly withstand major attacks from west and east simultaneously.

I think this change would greatly benefit the Russians. IOTL 2nd Army, IIRC, had an 80 mile march to the frontier. Both forces set off without full complements of men and equipment, organisation was a mess, and there's the infamous radio transmissions in the clear problem, the vastness of the armies and poor comms, which meant the generals were out of touch with their troops, not to mention the sheer bad luck of the German staff officer who'd spent time in Russia and knew assorted handy facts. If the Russians sit on the defensive, they have the time to iron out these problems, and they won't be strung out in line of march. Definitely a better outcome for the Motherland.

Provided the strategic plans remain the same, the invasion of A-H should go pretty much the same, but there's no need ITTL to reinforce Poland, because there's been no disaster. So reinforcements and supplies can trundle off over there, allowing for a further major offensive or two. I suspect the Germans will still have to strip a few divisions off the west, since the Austrians will need the help. A limited German offensive against the Russian's Northwest Army Group (in order to take the pressure off the Austrians) seems plausible, but might not work.
 
Ok that could work but what about the German Army in East Prussia. If the Russians don't attack the Germany army first. Won't the German army attempt to smash the Russians.

Your amusing that the Russian Army will simply block any attack that the German Army launches in the first few months. Wouldn't the German Army simply crash through the first front line divisions that the Russians have.

The Russians weren't any good at offensive operations because of ill preparation and communication problems. How would they fair being on the defensive with German army on the attack ?
 

Markus

Banned
Ok that could work but what about the German Army in East Prussia. If the Russians don't attack the Germany army first. Won't the German army attempt to smash the Russians.

Your amusing that the Russian Army will simply block any attack that the German Army launches in the first few months. Wouldn't the German Army simply crash through the first front line divisions that the Russians have.

The Russians weren't any good at offensive operations because of ill preparation and communication problems. How would they fair being on the defensive with German army on the attack ?

A German offensive is highly unlikely. The German plan called for a mere defence of the east until France was defeated. After that it was assumed it would not matter how much success the Russains had enjoyed during the absence of the bulk of the German forces.

On the defensive the Russians are going to do a lot better, since defending preapred positions is an easier task than going on the offensive. Especially for less well trained troops.
 

MrP

Banned
Aye, I agree with Markus. Germany's Eighth Army was to hold its place until the French were defeated. So any immediate offensives in response to initial Russian inaction are vanishingly unlikely. As to the tactical competency of the Russians - one has the conflicting examples of Stallupönen and Gumbinnen to inspect.
 
I am really surprised no one has mentioned the Marne. If the Russian First and Second Armies merely remain on the defensive (perhaps with a corps of Second Army detached to join Fourth Army) then Moltke is not going to detach the two corps from the Western Front. Now in a lot of questionable AH this decision is considered the single most important decision of the war with some going so far as to say the Schlieffen Plan would work without it. This is not correct. Winning the Marne was a necessary but not a sufficient condition for a successful Schlieffen Plan. There is some possibility that with the help of the Guard Reserve Corps von Bulow can close the gap and that with the help of XI Army Corps Foch's Ninth Army would've been smashed hard by Third Army. However the fact remains that the German right wing has outrun its supply lines so by mid Sept they are forced to pause probably with a small withdrawal to a temporary defensive line based on the Marne instead of the Aisne.

With the end of Rava Russka (11 Sept) the full extent of the AustroHungarian crisis is now clear. So after the Marne Moltke removes 2 corps and sends them east which together with elements withdrawn from Eighth Army forms a Ninth Army in Silesia to fight on the left flank of the AH forces (even in OTL Moltke just before he was sacked wanted to form a weak German army to fight on the AH left flank---contrary to Ludendorff's wishes). The intent would be to merely stiffen Conrad's corset not launch an offensive. Still it would weaken Moltke's ability to resume the offensive in France which I believe would still harden into positional warfare but with the Germans occupying a greater area.
 
Geography makes this plan very risky. Russians could not use "natural lines of defence" without falling back to Central Belarus, and that (taking into account Congress Poland) is A LOT of land to cede to Germans. Moreover, ceding Poland will mean that any successfull Russian offensive against Austrians will be under threat of German southbound push from Poland. And Germans will be able to move their units across Polish plains faster than Russians will be able to drag reinforcements through Karpatian bottleneck.
 
The Germans are fully committed on the West-Front, so in the absence of a imminent Russian invasion, they’d likely keep things that way Russian forces without the disastrous East-Prussian campaign could hold off any German attack unless the Kaiser’s eastern armies receive mass reinforcement. Russian troops may be ill-trained peasants but they are a pretty tough bunch, plus even amateur troops can defend a fixed position reasonably-well. It's when they try to attack that things go badly wrong.

So until A-H starts begging for help I doubt the Germans will move agaisnt Russia, and even when they do they are more likely to send troops to halt the Russian advance into A-H territory.
 
The two army corps would not have been sent to the east, but have participated in the Marne battle. Result: Kluck beats Maunoury, while Bülow and Hausen hold the line, now Kluck moves south, finds the left flank of the BEF and get's a chance to do what he missed at Mons and Le Cateau.
First and second German armies were at the end of the only working supply line (railhead at St.Quentin, but already moving south during the battle), so they would not suffer severe shortages.
Looks like a German success in the west, after which the main force will be sent east to deal with the other foe.
 
I must confess my knowledge of the Eastern front in World War I is shallow at best.

Would it be possible for the Russians to follow a similar strategy to what they did with Napoleon? Could they lure the Germans and Austro-Hungarians deep into Russia until they have stretched their supply lines (and Russian infrastructure) to the point where they cannot effectively deal with a counter-attack?
 

Germaniac

Donor
I must confess my knowledge of the Eastern front in World War I is shallow at best.

Would it be possible for the Russians to follow a similar strategy to what they did with Napoleon? Could they lure the Germans and Austro-Hungarians deep into Russia until they have stretched their supply lines (and Russian infrastructure) to the point where they cannot effectively deal with a counter-attack?

Though another mass invasion could rally the people behind the government BUT the entire russian war effort wars based in the west, There was no moving to the urals.

I also doubt the germans and A-H would be so stupid to follow napoleons example and get caught in the trap. Had the Russians not made the offensives into east prussia i doubt you will see the german make a mass effort in russia until at least paris falls
 
Germany concentrates entirely on knocking France out and Austria is left to take the brunt of the Russians offensive for a little while. The chances for the Germans taking Paris increases , while the French General Staff demands that Russia move on the Eastern Front. If the Russian Army does not, it risks a serious loss of honor as France is nearly knocked out of the war in a couple of months. If for whatever reason, Paris does not fall, Russia and France will probably coordinate some kind of double attack on both the Eastern and Western Fronts, causing the Germans to reinforce both their Eastern Front and the Austrian Front. On a strategical level, it proves the weaknesses of the Austrian Army which the Germans are, from here on out, careful to try to protect from heavy combat. Basically, anyway you look at it, its a short term gain for the Central Powers, but, if Germany doesn't win an early knockout against France, it may led to Germany stretching itself too thin and being forced to end the war early then in OTL.
 

MrP

Banned
AFAIK, the German troops shifted from the West to the East constitute 4 divisions in 2 corps. The Guard Reserve Corps from Second Army was the former, comprising 3rd Guard and 1st Guard Reserve Divisions. The latter was XI Corps of 3rd Army, comprising 22nd and 38th Infantry Divisions. I'm not missing anything significant, am I?
 
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