Russian Pacific

[dgharis]

Ironically, the fact that its bloody difficult to get there by road would be a great reason to increase the sail fleet there. It could then be like the East India Company, sending out ships and getting them back. It would not be too onerous to use this route to boost settlement (people were used to having to stay aboard ship for ever to get anywhere, just read Wolseley's memoirs) and for constant replenishment of ships of the line. The Pacific scientific voyages had to come from the Baltic originally, so it would just be an extension of that.

Its also not inconsequential that the major straits, islands and rivers in this area are all named after admirals and the commanders of naval expeditions.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The result will be the EIC writ large. With home and the Tsar literally half a world away they will be on their own and relying on their own resources. The resulting empire will be Russian in name only; in practice it will be very much independent. Oh, they will be careful not to incur the Tsar's wrath, lest he send punitive expeditions after them, but they will pursue their own ends with their own means.

The Russian Empire is fundamentally an autocratic semifeudal land power. The Russian-Pacific empire will be an oligarchic mercantilist maritime power, as different from its parent as a whale from a lion. The only things they have in common will be language and religion, and those will diverge in time as well.

BTW, thanks for recommending Cloud Atlas; a most enjoyable read.

 

[Russian]

Whether I could hold it or not was another matter...
...And, what you control can't hurt you (much).

I guess I got your point: 'Easy come - easy go!'
The zar gets Hokkaido and if things go wrong he just let it go, loose it, saying something like this: "Ups, it's not my day"

But you do not realize that this kind of scenario is unacceptable for the zar. At least very much undesirable.

In the previous posts you mentioned Russia's zar desire to gobble as much as possible. That's quite correct.
But there is something else in Russian imperialism not less important:
- 'Do not let off the territory which you conquered. No way. Whatever the costs.'
If the zar looses some worthless piece of miserable land in the middle of nowhere his image is in great danger. He looks like a bad looser inside his country. Because the zar is supposed to protect some scrap of dry sand sacrificing innumerable lives of his loyal soldiers.

So if you were a Russian zar I assure you you would not get some new territory without any hope to protect it if need be (or at least to give the invaders a nice glorious bloodbath

Ironically, the fact that its bloody difficult to get there by road would be a great reason to increase the sail fleet there.

Russian empire had the largest land border on the planet. Which quite unavoidable made the army her first and vital priority. And the Russian navy got what was left after the army - not too much.
Any other financing strategy would be fatal for the empire...

 

[RGB]

Ironically, the fact that its bloody difficult to get there by road would be a great reason to increase the sail fleet there.

In fact, the convenience of relying on British merchant shipping (which was almost as fast and noticeably cheaper and had much greater carrying capacity) was a major snag in making the Trans-Siberian profitable.

I am perplexed as to why people assume Russians cannot sail to the Pacific from Europe (they did) or why they think many other contenders had naval presence in the area (they did not).

Finally, to keep the sailing smooth, Russia needs to juggle only two key alliances - Denmark (very very easy) and UK (can be done).

It's difficult, yes, and counter-intuitive, but other colonial powers did crazier things, because not all of them were cautious like the Tsars.

 

[Russian]

Finally, to keep the sailing smooth, Russia needs to juggle only two key alliances - Denmark (very very easy) and UK (can be done).

Do you actually believe in a long-term alliance between two aggressively expansionist world empires: Russia and the UK?

 

[The Kiat]

Do you actually believe in a long-term alliance between two aggressively expansionist world empires: Russia and the UK?

Yeah, that little scuffle in the Crimea would derail this alliance.

 

[RGB]

Do you actually believe in a long-term alliance between two aggressively expansionist world empires: Russia and the UK?

No, but just because there are competing interests does not mean there needs to be open warfare, and Russia did share many interests with Britain. It's a matter of weighing the Pacific vs. other potential conflicts. A deeper analysis would probably require reconstructing a sample history, however, so I'm not going to defend the point too strongly.

In any case the point is a smaller one than it seems to be; Russia's problem wasn't a lack of a seagoing navy, Russia's problem was the lack of any real merchant marine. Even if they could claim key bits of the Pacific (they could, against, the Spanish at least), they'd not be able to exploit it seriously without a profound societal overhaul, or lots and lots of foreign nationals in Russian service.

 

[Nugax]

The result will be the EIC writ large. With home and the Tsar literally half a world away they will be on their own and relying on their own resources. The resulting empire will be Russian in name only; in practice it will be very much independent. Oh, they will be careful not to incur the Tsar's wrath, lest he send punitive expeditions after them, but they will pursue their own ends with their own means.

The Russian Empire is fundamentally an autocratic semifeudal land power. The Russian-Pacific empire will be an oligarchic mercantilist maritime power, as different from its parent as a whale from a lion. The only things they have in common will be language and religion, and those will diverge in time as well.

BTW, thanks for recommending Cloud Atlas; a most enjoyable read.

This is a good point, the Russian Pacific will be to Russia what the EIC was to Britain, a fundamentally different organisation to the metropol operating mainly on its own devices. But like the EIC and Britain the Russian pacific will still be tied to the homeland through thick and thin - new recruits will constantly be arriving from Russia and the old hands aim will be to return home wealthy, and the power of the motherland will be used to underwrite the states security. I really doubt language and religion will diverge at all, and unlike British india the native presence is much more marginal and less likely to cause trouble.

 

[The Kiat]

So the whole thing can just be ran by the Russian-American Company? They'd still need soldiers to hold down the fort, dependent on the size of the fort. Small islands should not be too difficult, but what of Hokkaido?

 

[Russian]

No, but just because there are competing interests does not mean there needs to be open warfare, and Russia did share many interests with Britain. It's a matter of weighing the Pacific vs. other potential conflicts. A deeper analysis would probably require reconstructing a sample history, however, so I'm not going to defend the point too strongly.

It seems to me, that we both agree on the following:
- This 'Russian Pacific' affair will collapse the moment the UK says: "That's enough!"

So if the Tsar begins 'Russian Pacific' project he will give the British an instrument to blackmail him (or stab in the back).

Actually there were a lot of points in Europe and Asia where Russian and British interests conflicted. The British would definitely use "Pacific blackmail', they were not stupid.
Neither were the Russians.
That's why the Tsar didn't start 'Pacific project'.

 

[The Kiat]

2) Russian Hokkaido

The first landings at Hakedate occurred in 1847. Being so close to the Pacific coast of the Russian Empire, it was a natural place to expand. The island was also a strategic choke on Russian commerce from their few Pacific ports. Unlike lands around the Sea of Ohkost, Hokkaido had ports that were relatively ice-free in the winter. The small port of Hakedate on the southern tip of Hokkaido served the Russian- American Company well. By 1849, the Russian Navy established its own base in the port. Russian soldiers took control of the city away from the local governor. The Imperial Pacific Fleet was small by the comparison of Britain, France and even the United States.

Landings on this northern island of Japan did not go unnoticed by the Shogun. Upon hearing that foreigners have landed and captured parts of Hokkaido, the Shogun mustered an army to drive them out. The attempt was an utter disaster. While attempting to cross the Tsugaru Strait, the Japanese warriors were intercepted by the Russian Navy. They might be small compared to European powers, but easily overwhelmed the Shogun’s flotilla. Most of the warriors never reached land. Those that managed to reach Hokkaido found no sanctuary, as they were scythed by Russian grape shot. The event was in effect a reverse Wind of the Kami. Instead of the invaders being destroyed by the sea, the sea aided them.

Russian soldiers moved on Honshu shortly after the Japanese attack. In October 1850, Russian sailed into Edo Bay and shelled the city of Edo. Shortly after, Russian soldiers landed and occupied the city. There was only one response that the Shogun in Kyoto could have. During the winter of 1850-51, he called forth the largest assembled army the Japanese have compiled since the unification. This gave the Russians several months to fortify their position in Edo. The battle in March 1851, was a bloody affair, especially for the Japanese. Though severely outnumbered, Russian weapons outranged their opponents, and the Japanese lacked the artillery both the Russian Army and Navy could bring to bear on them.

The Japanese defeat opened the way for the Treaty of Kyoto in May. The treaty did several things. First, it opened Japan to foreign trade, with the Russian-American Company retaining a monopoly. As it would turn out, this monopoly would be short-lived. Secondly, it allowed the Russian Navy bases on Honshu and Kyushu. Lastly, and most humiliating, Japan was forced to cede Hokkaido to the Russian Empire. Not only would colonists of Russia’s numerous nationalities trickle on to the island, but the Tsar would exile and deport an even greater number of peoples to the island.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

What else would happen on Russian Pacific? I could help if I can, since I too have a Russian Pacific-like thread, but it involves having Russia acquire the Philippines.

 

[The Kiat]

What else would happen on Russian Pacific? I could help if I can, since I too have a Russian Pacific-like thread, but it involves having Russia acquire the Philippines.

As of now, I only have Hokkaido, Maui and Ni'ihau, Alaska, Midway, Wake and the Kuriles under Russian control. How did you have the Russians ending up with the Philippines? Seems to me that a war with a European power in the Pacific would cause Russia all sorts of trouble.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

As of now, I only have Hokkaido, Maui and Ni'ihau, Alaska, Midway, Wake and the Kuriles under Russian control. How did you have the Russians ending up with the Philippines? Seems to me that a war with a European power in the Pacific would cause Russia all sorts of trouble.

First, I had to isolate Russia in Europe through a Swedish victory in the Polish-Swedish Wars and a Phyrric Catholic victory in the 30YW. Next, I had Russia look east and helped out in their Siberian expedition, although I had to include the Revolt of the Three Feudatories (which was a rebellion designed to restore the Ming by toppling the Qing). Of course, Korea also became a protectorate, as well as capturing most of Mongolia and Manchuria. However, only OTL Kazakhstan was under Russian control. I also made the 7YW shorter to four years, and included an earlier version of Pugachev's Rebellion. Finally, I had Russia and France allied in an alternate version of the Napoleonic Wars where I had two Napoleon-like figures in Spain and the Ottoman Empire. Of course, I also had to make an addition to the fact that Russia and Sweden fought to a stalemate in the Great Northern War, although I can change it to a Swedish victory so Russia can still have the Oriental mindset before retaking St. Petersburg in the 1740s. I had ZachScape make a map for me.

 

[The Kiat]

Yeah, that's way different than the direction I'm headed.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Yeah, that's way different than the direction I'm headed.

That's fine. Maybe we can collaborate on the Russian Pacific thread project, if we could. I need help with mine though.

 

[The Kiat]

That's fine. Maybe we can collaborate on the Russian Pacific thread project, if we could. I need help with mine though.

I can always use new ideas. It's going to last at least until the Bolshevik Revolution. After that... I don't know. The USSR lacked a bit of the western lands the Russian Empire had, but I think that has more to do with demands of the peace signed with Germany. Not sure if Germany would try anything in the Pacific, not with the Royal Navy's Home Fleet bottling up the High Seas Fleet.

Would Japan get back their island? One thing's for sure, there won't be a Pacific War with Japan as the antagonist. Would Hokkaido be part of a Far East SSR, or its own Republic. What about Alaska and Kauai? The Tsar in exile in Alaska, or a Kauian Soviet Socialist Republic? Or maybe the British would just keep the islands after capturing Kauai and Niihau.

Now how and when are you stuck on yours?

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I can always use new ideas. It's going to last at least until the Bolshevik Revolution. After that... I don't know. The USSR lacked a bit of the western lands the Russian Empire had, but I think that has more to do with demands of the peace signed with Germany. Not sure if Germany would try anything in the Pacific, not with the Royal Navy's Home Fleet bottling up the High Seas Fleet.

Would Japan get back their island? One thing's for sure, there won't be a Pacific War with Japan as the antagonist. Would Hokkaido be part of a Far East SSR, or its own Republic. What about Alaska and Kauai? The Tsar in exile in Alaska, or a Kauian Soviet Socialist Republic? Or maybe the British would just keep the islands after capturing Kauai and Niihau.

Now how and when are you stuck on yours?

I just need your input on whether or not I've done my TL properly. It's called The Bear Migrates to the Pacific, and you can find it in my profile.

 

[Stars-and-Stripes]

The French, British, and other major colonial powers had colonies and ports from Europe, through Africa, and into Asia. Russia on the other hand had to get all supplies through Siberia. Also, they had a major problem getting people there. No one really wanted to travel thousands of miles to live in a place which wasn't much better than home.

Perhaps if Japan had been weakened by a series of other wars, civil war, or horrible diseases than Russia might have tried. But otherwise it wasn't really feasible for them at the time.

 

[The Kiat]

I just need your input on whether or not I've done my TL properly. It's called The Bear Migrates to the Pacific, and you can find it in my profile.

I ain't no expert, but I'll look at it. The format looks alright, but it'll take a while to read.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I ain't no expert, but I'll look at it. The format looks alright, but it'll take a while to read.

Thanks. Keep me posted when you finished reading.