Russian Krakow

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Deleted member 109224

From 1815-1846 Krakow was a Free City under the tripartite protection of Prussia, Russia, and Austria. In 1846 Austria annexed the statelet.

What if Russia had annexed the city instead?
 

Jan Olbracht

TruthfulPanda said:
Doesn't really change anything.
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Almost anything. Cultural influence of Cracow would affect southern part of Congress Poland, which would still speak Cracow dialect instead of switching into Warsaw one ( so people around Kielce would still go 'na pole' instead 'na dwór'). Cracow would not be post-Austro-Hungarian town with flavour of Vienna and cult of Franz Josef.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Jan Olbracht said:
Almost anything. Cultural influence of Cracow would affect southern part of Congress Poland, which would still speak Cracow dialect instead of switching into Warsaw one ( so people around Kielce would still go 'na pole' instead 'na dwór'). Cracow would not be post-Austro-Hungarian town with flavour of Vienna and cult of Franz Josef.
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So, some minor differences in Polish culture and education which, in the greater order of things, are meaningless.
E.g. the Szkoła Akademiczno-Górnicza gets established by Staszic in Kraków and not in Kielce, so maybe it does not die after ten years together with its founder but lives on to this day, the oldest Polish technical university. What does this change in world history?
 

cmakk1012

It could possibly effect Polish nationalism through the nineteenth century up until WWI but I couldn’t say how. Does Austria become any more stable with a few less Poles?
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
I'm thinking the main effect would be the WHY of it and its repurcussions.

OTL the Austrians were the ones who could easily move military forces into the area and put down the rising

So, I am assuming the Russians instead have forces nearby who do this instead

OTL the Russians were happy enough for the Austrians to annex it

I can't for a moment imagine the Austrians will be happy for the Russians to do this!

This will lead to an earlier and greater emnity
 
wolfhound817

wolfhound817

cmakk1012 said:
It could possibly effect Polish nationalism through the nineteenth century up until WWI but I couldn’t say how. Does Austria become any more stable with a few less Poles?
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probably a bit, how much would this affect Poland in WW1 and the Interwar period (assuming there's no huge butterfly affect). Austrians would probably take it early on in the war and there would be more poles, from krakow, flocking to the banners of the central powers.
 

Jan Olbracht

wolfhound817 said:
probably a bit, how much would this affect Poland in WW1 and the Interwar period (assuming there's no huge butterfly affect). Austrians would probably take it early on in the war and there would be more poles, from krakow, flocking to the banners of the central powers.
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Poles from Russian Poland were not enthusiastic about Central Powers invasion, generally stayed loyal to Russia. Poles from Galizia were the main supporters of CP.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
In short - in 1914 99% of Poles were loyal to their Overlords. Even enthusiastic in their support!
Something which Polish historians tend(ed) to downplay ...

As to demographic impact - Kraków was a sleepy provincial town - having 100K Poles and Jews more or less does not make a difference to a 54M country.
 

Jan Olbracht

wolfhound817 said:
oh sorry I didn't know
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This is not widely known fact, it is common view, that Poles in Russian Poland waited for liberation by CP forces, while in fact under Partitions, Russians were considered 'lesser evil' when compared to Germans. Only Galizia was pro-CP, due to Galizian Autonomy.
 

Jan Olbracht

TruthfulPanda said:
Yes.
Somewhere in the early XXth century Prussia/Germany took the "worst opressor" title away from Russia.
Germany was turned down the screw while Russia was becoming benevolent.
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In 1914 uprisings in Russian Poland were fading memories, but it was well known fact in all parts of partitioned Poland what is going on in Posen 'Hakata', or school children beaten for speaking Polish, or Poles denied permission to build houses on their own land due to their nationality, something like this was unthinkable in Russian Poland.
When Polish Unit-First Cadre Company entered Russian Poland, trying to inflict anti-Russian uprising, they failed miserably.
 

JackLumber

Jan Olbracht said:
In 1914 uprisings in Russian Poland were fading memories, but it was well known fact in all parts of partitioned Poland what is going on in Posen 'Hakata', or school children beaten for speaking Polish, or Poles denied permission to build houses on their own land due to their nationality, something like this was unthinkable in Russian Poland.
When Polish Unit-First Cadre Company entered Russian Poland, trying to inflict anti-Russian uprising, they failed miserably.
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Germany was much more culturally homogeneous with the only real minority being the poles while Russia was very diverse in comparison, in that way it makes sense that the Germans would be the ones more likely to try and oppress polish culture.
 

EmptyChair

Jackson Lennock said:
From 1815-1846 Krakow was a Free City under the tripartite protection of Prussia, Russia, and Austria. In 1846 Austria annexed the statelet.
What if Russia had annexed the city instead?
Click to expand...
Grey Wolf said:
This will lead to an earlier and greater emnity
Click to expand...
Something Russia could use less of in the coming Crimean war of 1853-1855.
OTL Austrians have forsaken the union of three eagles and maintained hostile neutrality against Russia.
And that's after Nicholas I has saved their bacon from Hungarians in 1849 - out of misguided principled notions that filled his obsolete head.
Now imagine Austrian reaction if there is a feeling Russia stole some rightful Austrian clay from under their noses.

Grey Wolf said:
I'm thinking the main effect would be the WHY of it and its repurcussions.
Click to expand...
I agree. The WHY would have far greater repercussions than Krakow itself.
Is there a leadership change in Russia?
Are anti-Austrian elements gaining traction in imperial government?
If so, will Austria gain crucial Russian support against Hungarians in 1849?
If not, the map of central Europe changes dramatically. Collapse of one of the Great Powers of its time would send shockwaves across Germanic Union and beyond.
Austria was in the middle of its own revolution in 1848-49, so Austrian rump isn't going to remain a monarchy either. This is a huge win for the historical progress in Europe.
The remaining monarchist governments will be terrified by such blow. "Reaction era" would be much, much harsher than in OTL. With collapse of Austria, remaining Princes/Kings of Germanic Union would rally around Prussia; this could accelerate small German solution and creation of German state by decades.
Expect much clampdown on nationalist movements in Europe and beyond.

Imagine the terror in Britain when 1857 Indian rebellion hits after Hungarians overthrow Austrian empire.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Why?
Kraków used to be part of the Duchy of Warsaw, Most of which went to Russia.
Reason good enough for politics ...
In 1846 if Russia and/or Prussia vetoed the annexation, would Austria had done it? So it stays as a tri-way condominium.
Then come 1849 and Nicholas demands Austrian consent to Russian annexation (maybe he likes gothic churches and considers Russia not to have enough of them?) in return for the intervention in Hungary.
 

JackLumber

EmptyChair said:
Something Russia could use less of in the coming Crimean war of 1853-1855.
OTL Austrians have forsaken the union of three eagles and maintained hostile neutrality against Russia.
And that's after Nicholas I has saved their bacon from Hungarians in 1849 - out of misguided principled notions that filled his obsolete head.
Now imagine Austrian reaction if there is a feeling Russia stole some rightful Austrian clay from under their noses.


I agree. The WHY would have far greater repercussions than Krakow itself.
Is there a leadership change in Russia?
Are anti-Austrian elements gaining traction in imperial government?
If so, will Austria gain crucial Russian support against Hungarians in 1849?
If not, the map of central Europe changes dramatically. Collapse of one of the Great Powers of its time would send shockwaves across Germanic Union and beyond.
Austria was in the middle of its own revolution in 1848-49, so Austrian rump isn't going to remain a monarchy either. This is a huge win for the historical progress in Europe.
The remaining monarchist governments will be terrified by such blow. "Reaction era" would be much, much harsher than in OTL. With collapse of Austria, remaining Princes/Kings of Germanic Union would rally around Prussia; this could accelerate small German solution and creation of German state by decades.
Expect much clampdown on nationalist movements in Europe and beyond.

Imagine the terror in Britain when 1857 Indian rebellion hits after Hungarians overthrow Austrian empire.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get your hopes too high for some kind of Austrian republic, anything too crazy will just see Prussian boots on the ground in Vienna. They could get a republic but any attempts to export it is going to see intervention from Prussia and russia
 
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