"Russian Dynasty" Ruling China

What would it take for the Russians to rule China and be accepted as such by the Chinese? Would a seriously fragmented China be enough? What PODs might cause such fragmentation of China. Maybe if the Manchu fail to completely subdue the various Chinese ethnicities, but manage to seriously hamper them to the point they look up to the Russians to defeat the Manchu. Or does this require an early POD putting Russia in a more stronger position as it begins its eastwards march? Could Russia gradually absorb China like the British did in India?

I might be stretching it, but if this can happen early enough (1650s - 1700s), then the Tsar might be seen has having the Mandate of Heaven, leading to a personal union of two Empires under one Emperor. How much Chinese influence can be expected to creep into Russian society, and will this somehow affect the "westernization" of Russia-- what kind Ideologies will develop in Russia ITTL? Can this great "Eurasian Empire" be expected to survive in any form-- even as an alliance between two related but ununified empires -- to the modern era? (I'm expecting massive butterflies when it comes to Ideology and Nationalism, so I am not too sure about either democracy or the nation-state become global norms)
 
Very interesting idea
But there is 6000-8000 km to reach China from populated and resourceful regions of Russia.

And your have angry Djungars/Oirats/Mongols who were against both China and Russia.

Russians had much problems with Ottoman Empire, Sweden at that time,
and Far East project was just exploration/scouting - no real force to beat Manchu.
 
Now I can't get the vision of this uber-Russia-China covering 2/3 of Asia and spreading from the German border to Vietnam with colonies in Alaska and Indonesia to boot.:eek:
 
Now I can't get the vision of this uber-Russia-China covering 2/3 of Asia and spreading from the German border to Vietnam with colonies in Alaska and Indonesia to boot.:eek:

Why Alaska and German border ? ;-) ;-)

Imagine all-russian pacific north american sea coast
and Russian-French border (with germany finally shared by Great France and Russian Empire) ;-)

Indonesia let's be British (after Netherlands will be in french empire) ;-)
 
Great, you JUST have to give China more lands don't you?

Because we all know every culture that tried to invade China end up getting absorbed into the chinese culture and Chinese Nation.

The Mongols invaded and take over China, and inner Mongolia is part of China now, the Manchu invaded and take over China, and Manchuria is part of China now as well.

Russia invading china, and end up getting abosorbed into the Chinese culture.

Isn't this a China-wank instead of a Russia wank?
 
The Russians are far away from China, I doubt that they will almost completly disappare as a people like the Manchurians did.
 
You'd need to get rid of Peter the Great IMHO, since he wanted Russia to be a European and not an Asiatic power. And if Russia DOES focus against China (first against the Chinese vassals such as Mongolia, Khokand etc) then the lands won in the 18th century will remain Swedish, Polish, Ottoman etc, perhaps with an independent Ukraine as a barrier under Russian influence

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
You'd need to get rid of Peter the Great IMHO, since he wanted Russia to be a European and not an Asiatic power. And if Russia DOES focus against China (first against the Chinese vassals such as Mongolia, Khokand etc) then the lands won in the 18th century will remain Swedish, Polish, Ottoman etc, perhaps with an independent Ukraine as a barrier under Russian influence

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
1. Khokand (West Turkestan and Central Asia) is NOT and never was Chinese vassals.

At that time China was just taken by Manchu people.
Manchu China until 1755 struggled with Dzungars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungars ) who isolated Russia and China. Dzungars were strong enough to defend themself from both countries.

So it's almost impossible for Russia in 18th century to invade and control even Central Asia.
Siberia was controlled just because nobody argued it.

2. In 18th century Russia just defended itself in south from Ottomans and Crimean khanate. So your proposition not to struggle means to leave lands open for invasions and let turks to have many slaves.
In the north and west Russia just tried to secure its trade on Baltic sea.
So it wasn't giperactive Peter the Great - it was lack activity of previous tsars.

Poland will never let independent Ukraine to exist.
And Ukraine would prefer to live with Russia than with their Catholic arch-enemies - Polacks.
 
It is too far for Russia in 17th-18th century and too late in 19th century.

P.S. There's TL concentrating on surviving united Mongol empire, which by 17th century turns into alliance of Russia (Western Ulus) and China (Eastern Ulus), with Mongols being sidelined by their more civilized "subjects". And yes, Chinese culture dominates Russia ITTL.
 
I think for this to work and for the Russians to be accepted as having the Mandate of Heaven and as being at least as legitimate as the Manchus were, the Russians would have to adopt the Confucian state structure and probably move the capital to China. I'm not sure if the Romanovs would really go for that...

As for Chinese influence in Russia, one wonders. The Manchus for awhile tried hard to keep Manchu culture alive, though they eventually gave in and allowed mass Chinese settlement in underpopulated Manchuria, which is really probably what killed the Manchus as an independent culture. European Russia is more urbanized than Manchu Manchuria was, has more people, and is much farther from the Chinese heartland- this would seem to limit sinicization of the Russians...
 

Nietzsche

Banned
"Sir! We finally have a warm water port! Our dreams have been fufilled!"

"That's wonderful Vlad! Where is it?"

"...China!"

"...I think you severely misinterpreted the idea."
 
It is too far for Russia in 17th...

Conceded.

and too late in 19th century.

Depends upon how bad China is doing. Let's say if we have China really fragmented with the 17th and 18th centuries being a period of warring powers, the Russians might use the same strategy in China in the late 18th / early 19th century as the British did in India. Maybe TTL has two "Great Games" -- with Russia winning the first and Britain winning the second. The Mandate of Heaven bit is tricky, but with the Russian as a unifying and modernizing force after a century of civil war, it might still work, given a "Sinophile" Tsar.


P.S. There's TL concentrating on surviving united Mongol empire, which by 17th century turns into alliance of Russia (Western Ulus) and China (Eastern Ulus), with Mongols being sidelined by their more civilized "subjects". And yes, Chinese culture dominates Russia ITTL.

linky?
 
BTW let's use Dzhungars (Oirats, western Mongols) who tried to unite all mongols in XVII-XVIII.
They can be useful force to oppose Munchu, shutter Min's China together with Manchu.
Then Russians can come and play the role of China defenders (though being in some union with Dzhungars)
 
Depends upon how bad China is doing. Let's say if we have China really fragmented with the 17th and 18th centuries being a period of warring powers, the Russians might use the same strategy in China in the late 18th / early 19th century as the British did in India.
That's very different China. And it will be split between Russia and "Seafaring" colonial powers (Britain, France, possibly USA) anyway. Russia can't keep them Chinese coast. Would you be content with Russian Northern China, it is doable.
It is in Russian. Code word for googling is "Ордусь" (Horde + Rus).
 
Top