Russian collapse, yet not official Russian defeat in WW1

Looking for potential butterflies of World War 1 peace negotiations in which the Russians were allowed a seat at the table. So presume a collapse, as IOTL leading to same Provisional Government that was recognized by the Allies (March 1917). But inserting a POD that does not forestall the collapse of the majority of Russian military efforts, and that some form of the Provisional government survives such that after Allied victory they are allowed a seat at the table. So, no peace treaty with the Germans, and Russian attempts to remain within the Entente alliance while largely forced to concentrate all efforts on defeating Bolshevik forces internally.

For the sake of argument, something along the lines of a Kornilov led sweep of Bolshevik forces in Petrograd (Aug-17), that while keeping Provisional even 'white Russian' forces intact in Government circles, much of Russia still disintegrates into disorder to the effect that German forces largely remain victorious in the East, and large numbers are still transferred to the West for some type of actions in the West. Basically they sense and hold victory in the East, and come to same 1918 tactical conclusions. American numbers still ultimately become too much and Germany melts into basically an IOTL defeat. Provisional Russian forces have kept their recognition by Western powers, and either in name only or by retaining somewhat in control of Russian foreign policy, demand a seat in postwar matters.

Again, forgive the long winded opening, but on to the actual pressing question I pose. As mentioned ... after a similar/near OTL defeat of Germany, the victorious powers sit down at the same Paris conference, but now with seats for Russian delegates, legitimately held by heirs (remember, officially recognized IOTL March-17) of the Czarist government. What Geo-political ramifications result of Russia sitting in on the Treaty of Versailles.

Promises were of course offered on Constantinople. Are they allowed control over the straights? If so, how does this impact Greece war plans. Greece was able to essentially almost take much of Eastern Turkey alone (before squandering it). Will Turkey itself (Anatolia) be dismembered?

Assuming Russian stands with France on harsher (even than OTL) reparations, does Germany suffer even harder economic conditions.

How will the Polish question be addressed? Impact on German borders especially. If the Western powers insists on a Polish state, how will that impact Russo-German relations going forward if both have resentful border redraws.

Likewise, if other Russian ethnic groups break off (or by this time have broken off) do the Western powers recognize them, stand with promise and alliance with Russia, and in either case how will Germany look to take advantage of it.

What kind of relationship would a Yugoslavia have with a non-Soviet (albeit weakened) Russian/Slav power next door.

Does France align more closer to their Russian allies (more so now if some form of Republican government exists) thus not Britain. With Germany down, France might see a future where Franco-Russian partnership dominates continent. Not in conquest, just influence. How does Britain react? If America largely retreats back across the Atlantic, where and what does the UK turn to.

In short, there are more complications with Russia remaining in the war, especially given promises made by UK/France, than one would think. Many if not all of which would greatly impact how Germany behaves which of course impacts major global events. Looking for all thoughts.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
Promises were of course offered on Constantinople. Are they allowed control over the straights?

Probably Yes.

If so, how does this impact Greece war plans. Greece was able to essentially almost take much of Eastern Turkey alone (before squandering it).

Well, a Russo-Greek alliance might prevent Turkey's resurgence in the early 1920s.

Will Turkey itself (Anatolia) be dismembered?

Possibly to some extent.

Assuming Russian stands with France on harsher (even than OTL) reparations, does Germany suffer even harder economic conditions.

Probably to some extent; after all, the fact that Germany will also have to pay reparations to Russia in this TL will make the financial situation more difficult for Germany in comparison to our TL.

How will the Polish question be addressed? Impact on German borders especially. If the Western powers insists on a Polish state, how will that impact Russo-German relations going forward if both have resentful border redraws.

An independent Polish state will be created, but the Kresy will remain a part of Russia.

In this TL, Russia won't have any revanchist claims against Poland and instead will probably support Poland against German territorial revisionism.

Likewise, if other Russian ethnic groups break off (or by this time have broken off) do the Western powers recognize them, stand with promise and alliance with Russia,

It will stand with Russia and give Russia a carte blanche to reconquer these areas (other than Poland and Finland).

and in either case how will Germany look to take advantage of it.

It will try setting up pro-German puppet states in these areas.

What kind of relationship would a Yugoslavia have with a non-Soviet (albeit weakened) Russian/Slav power next door.

Very good ones, presumably.

Does France align more closer to their Russian allies (more so now if some form of Republican government exists) thus not Britain.

Probably Yes.

With Germany down, France might see a future where Franco-Russian partnership dominates continent. Not in conquest, just influence. How does Britain react? If America largely retreats back across the Atlantic, where and what does the UK turn to.

There might be an Anglo-German rapprochement in the 1920s and 1930s in this TL.

In short, there are more complications with Russia remaining in the war, especially given promises made by UK/France, than one would think. Many if not all of which would greatly impact how Germany behaves which of course impacts major global events. Looking for all thoughts.

Well, I gave you my thoughts right above. :)
 

NoMommsen

Donor
An independent Polish state will be created, but the Kresy will remain a part of Russia.

In this TL, Russia won't have any revanchist claims against Poland and instead will probably support Poland against German territorial revisionism.
... and "revanchist" claims of Poland against Russia ?

Pilsudski will be around also this time - having seen a russian army in constant withdrawel - having seen germany doing whatever it wanted even without some kind of "proper" treaty on russian territory.

He also might see maybe no bolshevik revolution, but the russian goverment that berely hangs on (by kind of "Kornilov" actions everywhere, smaller than the "BIG revolution but nonetheless weakening Russia overall).

IMO he wouldn't stay away from starting a polish-russian war ITTL also.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
... and "revanchist" claims of Poland against Russia ?

Pilsudski will be around also this time - having seen a russian army in constant withdrawel - having seen germany doing whatever it wanted even without some kind of "proper" treaty on russian territory.

He also might see maybe no bolshevik revolution, but the russian goverment that berely hangs on (by kind of "Kornilov" actions everywhere, smaller than the "BIG revolution but nonetheless weakening Russia overall).

IMO he wouldn't stay away from starting a polish-russian war ITTL also.
Poland could start a revanchist war against Russia if it has German support for this. However, German support for such a Polish endeavor might require the cession of the Polish Corridor to Germany; indeed, is Poland willing to pay such a high price for German support?
 
Poland could be a mess. However... A Polish uprising at the German's backs could help the Russians enormously, and Russia had already accepted that Poland would be given wide-ranging autonomy back in 1916. It's quite possible that Dmowski and the ND party could reach an agreement with the Russians for full independence. And I'm not sure that Pilsudski would necessarily start a war against the Russians. It depends on how bad a mess Russia falls into and how Britain and France react to that mess. OTL, Britain loathed Pilsudski and France was uncomfortable with him, but the situation in Eastern Europe was so chaotic it gave him hope he could achieve his aims before anyone else realized what way was up. If Pilsudski is faced with a less favorable situation for full Polish reconstitution, my bet is that he'd take what he could get.

Poland could start a revanchist war against Russia if it has German support for this. However, German support for such a Polish endeavor might require the cession of the Polish Corridor to Germany; indeed, is Poland willing to pay such a high price for German support?

The Germans and the Hapsburgs were already "backing" Polish revanchists (Pilsudski was actually the leader of this army until he was removed from command and imprisoned in 1917) - I have difficulty seeing the Germans backing the Poles more than they did OTL and I have difficulty seeing more Poles believing in the German promises (which were to make a pretty derisory Polish statelet that would have been a German province in all but name) were worth fighting for.

What might happen is that the PoD that keeps Russia in the war butterflies the break between Pilsudski and the Germans, meaning the CP's Pole sare an effective fighting force for longer.

Does France align more closer to their Russian allies (more so now if some form of Republican government exists) thus not Britain. With Germany down, France might see a future where Franco-Russian partnership dominates continent. Not in conquest, just influence. How does Britain react? If America largely retreats back across the Atlantic, where and what does the UK turn to.

I rather suspect that France, Britain and Russia will be sticking close in TTL. All 3 have been badly mauled and will depend on the support of the others to keep going. The co-dependency could result in resentment of course. Particularly, France needs Russia to pay its debts to meet what she owes to Britain, which Britain needs to be able to afford her debts to America.

fasquardon
 

NoMommsen

Donor
What might happen is that the PoD that keeps Russia in the war butterflies the break between Pilsudski and the Germans, meaning the CP's Pole sare an effective fighting force for longer.
... on the CP side.
-> polish troops as "shop-keepers" on the russian front deep within russian territory (already)
->-> Would Pilsudski, dreaming of a polish realm in the borders of 1772 really let Minsk go ?
->-> More german troops able to be transferred to the west ?

ramifications, ramifications ... :biggrin:

I rather suspect that France, Britain and Russia will be sticking close in TTL. All 3 have been badly mauled and will depend on the support of the others to keep going. The co-dependency could result in resentment of course. Particularly, France needs Russia to pay its debts to meet what she owes to Britain, which Britain needs to be able to afford her debts to America.

fasquardon
Well, about France' "concerns" on russian debts or debts at all ... easyly resolved.
They will give the same advice as IOTL to themself, actuall to bolshevik Russian also :
"Let the "boche" pay !"

Abd Britain ... not so easy IMO.
First :
Their policy of "balance of power" on the continent will now be heavily contested, if not already compromised by the victory boasting (more)russo-french alliance. They won't like to be "forced" by circumstances and lack of alternatives (?) to have to stick to this Triple-Entente.
Second :
The empire. All fears of threats in the Caucasus, Persia, Central Asia, the Far East will pop up immediatly. Especially Caucasus, Persia and Central Asia (Hindukush region), where France has no stakes and therefore might be ... friendly to whatever russian attempts might be.
 
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