Russian Africa
- Thread starter Agentdark
- Start date
David S Poepoe
Banned
Unlikely that any Russian expansion in Africa will be tolerated until some sort of agreement between Britain and Russia - which also involves Asia. Arguin would be a target during the Crimean War and one that won't be returned.
It just seems highly unlikely that Russia would seek any African territories, when it is expending money and troops expanding eastward toward the Pacific. Also a post-Great War settlement also seems slim with Russia receiving the Straits as the most realistic goal.
During the height of imperialism the major powers did seem to seize some territories simply for the sake of saying "we have this territory, and nobody else can have it - nya, nya nya nya nyaaa!" That's how Italy ended up with Somalia and Germany got part of New Guinea and France got the majority of the Sahara and the US and Germany competed for the Samoan islands and France and Britain almost went to war over who would control an isolated patch of southern Sudan - even though none of these places brought any substantial economic benefits to their countries, and in many cases were very remote from the countries that ruled them. I don't see any particular reason why Russia's rulers might not decide to add an overseas colony or two, in Africa or elsewhere, to supplement their huge land-based empire. After all, for a first-rate colonial power, "too much is never enough" was the rule when it came to controlling territory.
Somalia actually seems a likely place for the Russians to grab in Africa. I read on some website years ago that some Tsarist official suggested doing exactly that in the 1880s. The idea was that Russia would then seek to make Ethiopia into a sort of ally/protectorate, based on the idea that Ethiopian Christianity was similar to Russian Orthodox Christianity and that Ethiopia would prefer being a protectorate of Russia to being conquered by a Catholic or Protestant or Muslim power. (I don't think Ethiopian Christiantiy is really that close to Russian Orthodoxy, but this Russian official thought otherwise).
Apart from Africa, Russia might have become more active in the Pacific. In OTL, I think they were actually the first European power to establish a military outpost in Hawaii in the early 19th century, but it was considered too remote to be useful and was soon withdrawn. What if one of the 19th century Tsars becomes obsessed with making Russia a Pacific power? Could Japan and Hawaii become Russian protectorates or outright colonies? Could Russia end up controlling many of the South Pacific Islands, or even the Philippines?
Somalia actually seems a likely place for the Russians to grab in Africa. I read on some website years ago that some Tsarist official suggested doing exactly that in the 1880s. The idea was that Russia would then seek to make Ethiopia into a sort of ally/protectorate, based on the idea that Ethiopian Christianity was similar to Russian Orthodox Christianity and that Ethiopia would prefer being a protectorate of Russia to being conquered by a Catholic or Protestant or Muslim power. (I don't think Ethiopian Christiantiy is really that close to Russian Orthodoxy, but this Russian official thought otherwise).
Apart from Africa, Russia might have become more active in the Pacific. In OTL, I think they were actually the first European power to establish a military outpost in Hawaii in the early 19th century, but it was considered too remote to be useful and was soon withdrawn. What if one of the 19th century Tsars becomes obsessed with making Russia a Pacific power? Could Japan and Hawaii become Russian protectorates or outright colonies? Could Russia end up controlling many of the South Pacific Islands, or even the Philippines?
Thande
Donor
Generally you're correct but this particular incident was far more important than it might seem - Britain wanted to build a north/south railway across Africa and France wanted to build an east/west one - to do so, they would need contiguous strips of territory across Africa, which would of course cross at some point, so you couldn't have both at once - hence conflict was inevitable.
Paul Spring said:
I'm planning to have a Russian Japan in a timeline I will get around to writing one day...I'd appreciate some discussion on the subject, as I currently only have sketchy ideas in that direction.
Russian Japan?
Sounds like a non-possible there.
By the time Russia could get enough people to Japan to actually occupy it successfull (to say nothing of defeating the waves of assorted Samurai Japan would throw at them), Japan was, if anything, stronger than Russia.
Up until the Trans-Siberian Railroad was done an invasion of Japan by Russia would result in HUGE attrition casualties simply GETTING there. They would need to send their entire army, IMO, just to make it there with a semi-viable combat force.
Sounds like a non-possible there.
By the time Russia could get enough people to Japan to actually occupy it successfull (to say nothing of defeating the waves of assorted Samurai Japan would throw at them), Japan was, if anything, stronger than Russia.
Up until the Trans-Siberian Railroad was done an invasion of Japan by Russia would result in HUGE attrition casualties simply GETTING there. They would need to send their entire army, IMO, just to make it there with a semi-viable combat force.
Thande
Donor
Sounds like someone's developed a case of what Flocc diagnoses as Projecting Second World War Era Japanese Power Back Before 1850 Syndrome
Or rather, a case of Russia having to march a bunch of people across Siberia in order to fight a war against an enemy with insane numerical superiority.Sounds like someone's developed a case of what Flocc diagnoses as Projecting Second World War Era Japanese Power Back Before 1850 Syndrome
Consider the Anglo-Zulu war, only the Russians most likely wouldnt have repeating/breechloading rifles.
I doubt the Japanese would be overly impressed with their musketry or bayonete skills.
I don't think a direct Russian conquest of Japan is likely, since Japan is far away from Russia's center of power and still better armed than most other non-western powers of the mid-19th century. I do think it's possible that a Russia with a stronger presence in the Pacific could try to turn Japan into a protectorate or at least a subordinate ally by playing different factions off against each other, offering a mixture of aid and intimidation. In one TL I fiddled with, a Russia with stronger Pacific ambitions supports a faction around the Tokugawa Shogun in the 1860s, while Britain supports a faction that wants to give the emperor more power. In the 1870s, there is a civil war between the two factions, and the Tokugawa side wins with lots of Russian support. Shogunal Japan becomes a close ally of Russia for several decades.
David S Poepoe
Banned
I'm not sure that Rhodes was actively planning the Cape to Cairo Railway at the time of Kitchener's campaign against the Mahdi, since the near conflict with Marchand and the French had much more to do with controlling the waters of the Nile. Control of the headwaters of the Nile is important since it directly influence control over Egypt which is directly linked with the Suez Canal.
The Blue Nile originates in the highlands of Ethiopia, while the White (primarily) starts at Lake Victoria. From what I've heard there was (or still is) a detachment of Egyptian soldiers that guard the source (or near by it) to this day. In that part of the world, everything had to deal with the Canal and the sea route to India.
Not that likely to happen, but sure, it's interesting. Furthermore, it's in a place where there really was no other European power for a while.
Thande
Donor
What I had in mind was direct Russian control over Hokkaido and just influence over the ethnic Japanese regions.
This would be based off an early 18th Century POD and essentially I've just beefed up a series of OTL attempted Russian trading missions that reached Hokkaido in the 1780s, making them more successful and leading to greater investment and then leading to a Russian Pacific Company.
This would be based off an early 18th Century POD and essentially I've just beefed up a series of OTL attempted Russian trading missions that reached Hokkaido in the 1780s, making them more successful and leading to greater investment and then leading to a Russian Pacific Company.
I think that is possible. Hokkaido was for a long time the Japanese frontier. The Ainu are the natives.
In your Clive-Less World the pre-UER Russian Empire likewise has some african colonies.
http://www.clockworksky.net/cliveless_world/ah_cliveless_tl_02.html