Russia wins the Crimean war

Hi

Again myself and a friend had an interesting disscussion today, which i would like to hear your opinion on.

During the Crimean war, austria did threatend russia with invasion and so they pinned down about 300000 russian troops, according to a history book of mine. This did sever the "good" relations which had grown between Russia and Austria after the napoleonic wars.

So my question is, if austria had supported Russia during the crimean war, ie not pinned down theese troops, could russia had won the crimean war? and even more importantly could Russia helped defeat the prussians when they moved on Austria, in order to unite germany?

In my opinion german nationalism was so strong germany was bound to be united somehow, so in what way would they be? a revival of the holy roman empire under austria? or is it even feaseable that germany unites with a stronger austria which beats prussia?

Thanks for all answers
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Hi

Again myself and a friend had an interesting disscussion today, which i would like to hear your opinion on.

During the Crimean war, austria did threatend russia with invasion and so they pinned down about 300000 russian troops, according to a history book of mine. This did sever the "good" relations which had grown between Russia and Austria after the napoleonic wars.

So my question is, if austria had supported Russia during the crimean war, ie not pinned down theese troops, could russia had won the crimean war? and even more importantly could Russia helped defeat the prussians when they moved on Austria, in order to unite germany?

In my opinion german nationalism was so strong germany was bound to be united somehow, so in what way would they be? a revival of the holy roman empire under austria? or is it even feaseable that germany unites with a stronger austria which beats prussia?

Thanks for all answers

What 300,000 troops is that?

The Royal Navy pinned 4 of Russia's 8 Line Corps into defending the Baltic frontier by threat of a desant, but no major forces were committed to fronting Austria at all.
 
What 300,000 troops is that?

The Royal Navy pinned 4 of Russia's 8 Line Corps into defending the Baltic frontier by threat of a desant, but no major forces were committed to fronting Austria at all.

Okei i will find the book that claims this and post a link to it tomorrow, but still lets think hypotetical, that austria doesent antagonize russia, and russia helps austria deafeat the prussians in the next war. what would happen to german unification then?
 
Hi

Again myself and a friend had an interesting disscussion today, which i would like to hear your opinion on.

During the Crimean war, austria did threatend russia with invasion and so they pinned down about 300000 russian troops, according to a history book of mine. This did sever the "good" relations which had grown between Russia and Austria after the napoleonic wars.

So my question is, if austria had supported Russia during the crimean war, ie not pinned down theese troops, could russia had won the crimean war? and even more importantly could Russia helped defeat the prussians when they moved on Austria, in order to unite germany?

In my opinion german nationalism was so strong germany was bound to be united somehow, so in what way would they be? a revival of the holy roman empire under austria? or is it even feaseable that germany unites with a stronger austria which beats prussia?

Thanks for all answers

No way. The problem is that in that period Russia had very limited logistical infrastructure to project power into the region. They had a hard enough time against the Ottomans alone in the early part of the war without the French and British, who DID have the logistical infrastructure to project power into the region.

Also, how would you define "win"?
 
Once the Russians had fled, forcing the British and French to follow them, they had already lost. Any costs and losses had resulted in no gains and a dangerous isolation in Europe while a powerful coalition supported the Ottomans.
 
They couldn't win that one with territorial gains, if that's what you mean.

But they could cause it to be very costly to the Allies, far more costly than IRL. If anything, they were timid and slow to react. That could, with a little luck on their side, end up resulting in, say, something close to status quo ante.
 
If the Russian are able to stay in the war until the 1857 rebellion in India, things could get interesting, to say the least. The rebellion may be enough to take Britian out of the war, and if that happens, depending on what situation Russia is at the time, Russia may win. I am not sure if Russia could even last that long, however.
 
thanks for all answers, the consensus seems to bee that russia would have a very hard time winning the crimean war. Lets say they dont win but they still are friends with austria. Now during the austro-prussian war of 1866, where bismarck kicked austrias butt IRL but, now russia views austria in a favorable light, after all austria didnt antagonaise russia during the crimean war ITTL.

So would it be feaseable that russia would help austria during this war? and if they did and defeated prussia and italy, would a german unification process still occour? if yes how would a germany under austrian "supervision" look like?
 
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Once the Russians had fled, forcing the British and French to follow them, they had already lost.
Fled from Ottoman territory, you mean?
Any costs and losses had resulted in no gains and a dangerous isolation in Europe while a powerful coalition supported the Ottomans.
If WP is any indication, cracks started to appear in coalitions' seams too. Yes, dragging on until Sepoy mutiny would have been creating interesting situation.

thanks for all answers, the consensus seems to bee that russia would have a very hard time winning the crimean war.
Win as in "gain" would be next to ASB. Win as in "return to status quo ante bellum" isn't likely, but not ASB.

Lets say they dont win but they still are friends with austria.
Almost ASB. Russian and Austrian interests collided in Balkan region since at least 50 years before Crimean war.

So would it be feaseable that russia would help austria during this war?
I don't think so. Prussians weren't seen as "ultimate enemy" of Russia back then.

if yes how would a germany under austrian "supervision" look like?
This is separate topic. I would say, Hapsburg Germany would be more "federalist", so to speak, less centralized.
 
"Winning" is rather nebulous in this case. However, a combination of Russia doing better and the Western Powers doing worse (far worse) could have had a momentous consequences for Europe. For one, if the French had performed poorly, taken rather heavy losses (not too hard to imagine, given the lack of operational proficiency on all sides during the conflict), and bled dry French finances, then overthrow of Napoleon's regime was not out of question. If Napoleon is gone, and replaced by either liberal or conservative regimes (doesn't matter which), then the momentous events of mid-century may very well go differently. What events? German and Italian unifications. Italian unification happened only because of Napoleon and French arms. No one else in France, conservative or liberal, believed in national liberations for either Italy or Germany, and they certainly would not have supported Sardinia to unify North Italy (and then South Italy). Neither liberal nor conservative French government would have tried to shake the staus quo up like Napoleon, who was impelled to live up to his name. With France in favor of status quo, both Cavour and Bismarck would've found exceedingly small room for diplomatic maneuver. (Bismarck's worst nightmare would've been if Thiers had been in charge of French policies.) Frankly, I don't see Italian unification happening under non-Napoleonic France, and Bismarck would actually have to earn his claims of genius to have pulled off German unification. NGF was strong enough to take on France and Austria, if necessary, but Prussia in 1866 was nowhere ready to take on Austria and probably hostile France at the same time. At the very least, both German and Italian unifications could've been pushed back by decades. In fact, it would not have been all too unreasonable for Bismarck and the Hohenzollerns cast down, and have a liberal Prussia unify Germany in the 90's...
 
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