RUSSIA VS GERMANY!

Why would the Italians want to serve on the EF?

Well Mussolini sent something like 10 divisions in OTL.

Personally I don't think the logistics exist for sending many more, atleast in the short term. Logistics is the field where all the problems with dramaticaly altering the situation of OTL exist. They certainly couldn't have hurled the entire Italian army to the east. An additional five or ten Italian divisions might have had an effect, but its pretty much impossible to say where they would have done so. In the grand scheme of things 5-10 divisions with subpar equipment is kind of neither here nor there.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Why would the Italians want to serve on the EF?

Seeing the reds as the main enemy as much as the nazis did, they served in OTL with an armycorps (IIRC 3 inf.Div. with around 100.000 total casualties), but couldn't deploy more with all the other commitments.

BTW I wonder how things will evolve on the Balkans sans a British involvement?

Without the north African involvement the Italians might deploy sufficient forces to overwhelm Greece right away, and I guess we also will be short of the British inspired coup in Yugoslavia, that had Germany invade that country. Yugoslavia might end up an axis partner of some sort. Anyway without the occupation duty in the Balkans, the Italians can free 20-30 Divisions.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
With Britain and the USA out of the war.. Maybe Franco decides to join Hitler, yes far away from Russia. But a possible pool of more manpower. Maybe Finland Joins on the Side of the Germans? Can Hitler convince Mannerheim to do so? Did the Red Army do anything against the Finns in TTL? Better or worst, was there a winter war of 1940?


Another idea is maybe even more French, Spanish, and other West Europeans volunteer for the German Army then they did in the OTL.. Another possible source more man powe
 
Seeing the reds as the main enemy as much as the nazis did, they served in OTL with an armycorps (IIRC 3 inf.Div. with around 100.000 total casualties), but couldn't deploy more with all the other commitments.

But they won't profit from the fall of Russia, nonly Germany would. Troops to reinforce Gremany after a *Stalingrad, sure, but for the sake of helping out Germany?

Particularly when it's not like Germany's helping Italy in the Med, in TTL.
 
With Britain and the USA out of the war.. Maybe Franco decides to join Hitler, yes far away from Russia. But a possible pool of more manpower. Maybe Finland Joins on the Side of the Germans? Can Hitler convince Mannerheim to do so? Did the Red Army do anything against the Finns in TTL? Better or worst, was there a winter war of 1940?


Another idea is maybe even more French, Spanish, and other West Europeans volunteer for the German Army then they did in the OTL.. Another possible source more man powe

The manpower's there already, what the Germans lack is equipment. Spain would likely have been more trouble than use, worsening relations with Vichy France, demanding propping-up etc.

Mannerheim wasn't President at the time, so he's not the Finn they should ask. As it is, I don't think Finland would act much different than IOTL, i.e. alliance with Germany but not submission.
 
I think most of it's been covered, unless someone wants to cite more books. From the excellent Wages of Destruction and a reasonable knowledge of this part of the war, I get the idea that the Germans could not possibly match the Soviets in quantity of troops & materiel, even with huge German gains in the first two years (say, historical 1941 + Moscow/Leningrad/Archangelsk/Rostov/Sevastopol in 1942). The two sides will burn themselves out fighting, probably resulting in an eventual peace not too far west of Brest-Litovsk. Both Germany and the USSR will look bad in economic and demographic messes, and they'll stay that way because a second round is likely - so they both need to keep building up their militaries.

Meanwhile, it's pretty clear the USSR had agents high in the Soviet ranks, although who they were is unknown.

With the benefit of recent research, we can speculate that the Soviet agents in the Soviet ranks were almost everybody. :p
 
The manpower's there already, what the Germans lack is equipment. Spain would likely have been more trouble than use, worsening relations with Vichy France, demanding propping-up etc.

Mannerheim wasn't President at the time, so he's not the Finn they should ask. As it is, I don't think Finland would act much different than IOTL, i.e. alliance with Germany but not submission.


Seems like the preceeding post everybody was seeming there was a manpower problem. When both sides would have been worn out, so manpower was needed.. At around 45-46.

But again alot of the timeline was missing..

Mannerheim was the one with heavy influence in that country. Especially after the war. Hitler and Finn President Ryti went to Visit Mannerheim 42.. Hitler knew who was the real power there, Remember Mannerheim refused to see Hitler at his headquarters, did not want that "state like" visit. Was the secret railway car meeting..
 
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Redbeard

Banned
But they won't profit from the fall of Russia, nonly Germany would. Troops to reinforce Gremany after a *Stalingrad, sure, but for the sake of helping out Germany?

Particularly when it's not like Germany's helping Italy in the Med, in TTL.

The ATL hasn't stated why/how GB has left the war, but scenarios where this means Italy gaining something on British cost are likely, and anyway Italy will be very dependent on Germany in all foreseeable future, even if the British have been defeated mainly by Italian effort. I could imagine a major British naval defeat in 1940 in the Med. having GB withdraw to focus on keeping the Empire together (being granted access through the Med. if giving up African and/or ME possessions to Italy).

Next, by 1941-42, when the decision about involvement on the EF is to be taken in Italy, the EF hardly is seen as the blood draining monster front we see it as today, but rather as the biggest (play)ground for victory, conquest and glory! I'm sure Mussolini and the whole Fascist system would be tempted to snatch their part in time - in this ATL the "declare war before you are ready" policy apparently worked well in 1940 - so why not a year or two later too, when the Italian army is closer to be 100% ready?

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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