Russia sends all 7 armies to fight Austria-Hungary

Major_Tom

In August 1914, Russia mobilized 7 armies and sent them to the frontline. 2 of them went to East Prussia where the 1st army was destroyed. 1 army went to Poland. And the other 4 armies (1,000,000+ men) went on the offensive in East Galicia.
In OTL, the Russians inflict 450,000 casualties and stop at the Carpathian mountains in late September.
What would happen if Russia send 7 armies to East Galicia? Could they completely beat the Austrians?
 
Osman Aga

Osman Aga

Banned
Wrong forum... could a mod move this to post-1900? Thanks in advance...

Russia not sending their armies to Germany is rather problematic. I'd say the Germans have an easier time to advance to Russian Poland and fight the Russians in Galicia together with the Austro-Hungarians.

My take... it does not seem wise on the long term to me. Especially as Austria-Hungary will still remain alive and well beyond the Carpathians.
 

Major_Tom

UoBLoyalist said:
The French would scream bloody murder at Russia abandoning any pretenses of tying down German forces.
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The Russian advance in East Galicia did alarm Germany and they send quite a lot of forces. In April 1915, Russia broke into Hungarian plains but were stopped by German reinforcements from the West. This would happen but in September 1914.
 

Stenkarazin

The Palytsin Strategic Plan of 1913 envisioned precisely this strategy. Russia would focus the bulk of her might against Austria-Hungary in Galicia. The problem is that War Minister Sukhomlinov and the guys calling the shots at the Stavka (Danilov, Yanushkevitch) wanted to please the French so they agreed to mount another offensive against Prussia, with the disastrous results that we know.
 

Court Jester

Leaving their border bare is asking for trouble, so they could transfer one army to Galician front (if transport network allows it) and leave two to guard border with Germany.
 

NoMommsen

Stenkarazin said:
The Palytsin Strategic Plan of 1913 envisioned precisely this strategy. Russia would focus the bulk of her might against Austria-Hungary in Galicia. ...
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You mentioned such ... "plan of 1913" alreayd before ...
Stenkarazin said:
... Palytsin plan of 1913 (focusing on Galicia and staying on the defensive vis-à-vis Prussia)...
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After quite some searching ... I'm at a loss :
Could you please name a source or hint to such for such a plan made by Palitzin in 1913 and being discussed at STAVKA ?
... who was actually sacked as chief of general staff (followed by the infamous restructuring of the top functions of the army by Sukhomlinov) and sidelined out of any to be considered effective military position in Nov. 1908.

edit :
I only know of the proposal of Alexeev in 1911/1912 before the "Plan 1912" of OTL was adopted in May 1912 by imperial decretation. You migt have a look at this ?
NoMommsen said:
Decide for another strategic concept in 1911/1912.

Maybe for the concept offered by Alexeejv ?
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@Aphrodite would certainly agree. ;-)
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Stenkarazin

NoMommsen said:
You mentioned such ... "plan of 1913" alreayd before ...

After quite some searching ... I'm at a loss :
Could you please name a source or hint to such for such a plan made by Palitzin in 1913 and being discussed at STAVKA ?
... who was actually sacked as chief of general staff (followed by the infamous restructuring of the top functions of the army by Sukhomlinov) and sidelined out of any to be considered effective military position in Nov. 1908.

edit :
I only know of the proposal of Alexeev in 1911/1912 before the "Plan 1912" of OTL was adopted in May 1912 by imperial decretation. You migt have a look at this ?
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Indeed I made a mistake. I just checked in Lieven "The End of Tsarist Russia" and a paper of a certain W. Wohlforth "The Perception of Power: Russia in the pre-war balance":

By 1912 Zhilinsky had already promised the French that Russia could attack both Austria and Prussia. It seems that at this point Palytsin's point of view, which advocated for a defensive stand against Germany and an offensive against Austria, had already been defeated.
 

Deleted member 94680

Major_Tom said:
Whats the problem? The other 3 armies were supplied in OTL in East Prussia and Poland.
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The problem is, you need to be able to supply the seven armies when they're in Galicia with the supply routes in Galicia and the Galician infrastructure. East Prussia and Poland are neither here nor there if the armies are all in Galicia.

OTL, the Russian supply situation was never exactly perfect or highly competent. IIRC there was a lot of scavenging and utilising Austrian supplies as they advanced through Galicia, which would indicate that STAVKA had problems supplying the four armies they used OTL. Seven may just be too much to bear.


Also, if everything is in Galicia, what’s to stop von Prittwitz and the VIII Army rampaging through Poland?

Given Plan 19 was developed in 1910 and amended to its 1914 form sometime between, when is the ATL Russian plan developed and everything put in place for it? What’s the PoD?
 

Deleted member 94680

JackLumber said:
I wonder how far and how fast the Germans can get once they realize they can move east totally unopposed
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In Operation Faustschlag in February 1918, the “norther force” of 16 Divisions went from Riga to Narwa (260 odd miles) in 10 days
 

JackLumber

Stenz said:
In Operation Faustschlag in February 1918, the “norther force” of 16 Divisions went from Riga to Narwa (260 odd miles) in 10 days
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That is not insubstantial, especially considering the Germans would have intact polish infrastructure to make use of.
Theoretically could they not move south occupying Poland and threatening the Russian supply lines simultaneously?
 
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Deleted member 94680

JackLumber said:
That is not insubstantial, especially considering the Germans would have intact polish infrastructure to make use of.
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Yeah, the 1918 advance isn’t a perfect comparison, but they didn’t really face any resistance and took advantage of Russian railways. I would assume an ATL 1914 “Great Advance” would at least face some Polish fortresses to overcome, sabotage or blocking of railways by garrison troops not used in the Russian Galician advance and possibly even resistance by the Polish themselves.
JackLumber said:
Theoretically could they not move south occupying Poland and threatening the Russian supply lines simultaneously?
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I would imagine that would be an aim of any Polish Campaign, once Warsaw and the like had been secured.

Pushing on the open door left by the Russian Galician adventure would probably mean a reduction in effort on the Western Front and any available troops would be thrown into an effort to capture as much of the Ober Ost as possible before the Russians can realise their mistake.
 

NoMommsen

The advance of the germans after Gorlice-Tarnow might then serve as an example for what advance might have been possible :
i.e. 9th army began its advance around 15th July , managing about 300 miles in 2 1/2 months on the way occupying Warsaw while fighting and pursuing retreating russian through "Scorched Earth" territory esp. regarding any means of transportation.

... not to speak of emptiness of people due to the deprtation of the polish populace deeper into Russia as they might be of "use" for the germans as well. ... and not to speak of what they left regarding Jews, definitly anything of theis property the russian soldiers were able to get their hands on, otherwise the Jews were rather regarded and treated like ballast. ... if not worse.
 

Aphrodite

Banned
Stenkarazin said:
Indeed I made a mistake. I just checked in Lieven "The End of Tsarist Russia" and a paper of a certain W. Wohlforth "The Perception of Power: Russia in the pre-war balance":

By 1912 Zhilinsky had already promised the French that Russia could attack both Austria and Prussia. It seems that at this point Palytsin's point of view, which advocated for a defensive stand against Germany and an offensive against Austria, had already been defeated.
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It comes back. There's no need to send seven armies south. It's way overkill.

If they send 15 divisions south they could be assured of trapping the Austrians. They would still have enough in the north to keep the 8th army busy. Once the 9th army assembles, a strike north would be possible.

The French won't like it but by September 1st, the Russians would be in much stronger shape. They could threaten Silesia and Bohemia while having the st and 2nd armies in tact.

If the Russians can convince the French of the stupidity of Plan XVII, it would be a boon to both. Joffre might not have been so aggressive if he knew the Russians would be late
 
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