Russia regathers a lot of its lost territories after the collapse of the Soviet Union

The Avenger

Banned
What if Russia would have regathered a lot of its lost territories after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

What effects would this have on present-day Russia?

Also, for the record, the scenario that I am thinking of here is having Hitler get killed in 1923. Thus, here is no World War II and no Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the Soviet Union does not expand beyond its 1938 borders. In turn, what this would mean is that even if the Soviet Union eventually collapses and breaks up in this scenario, it would be easier for Russia to pick up the pieces and regather a lot of its lost territories afterwards. After all, in this scenario, heavily nationalistic western Ukraine would remain a part of Poland (and possibly eventually be granted autonomy within Poland) and would thus be unable to influence political developments in the rest of Ukraine--thus making it much easier for the pro-Russian politicians in eastern and southern Ukraine to get their way and to form a renewed union with Russia in the early 21st century.

Thoughts?
 

The Avenger

Banned
I'm thinking of a neo-USSR (but a non-Communist one) consisting of Russia, eastern Belarus, most of Ukraine, and some or all of Central Asia. Also, some or all of the Caucasian states might also join this neo-USSR, but it's probably more doubtful.
 
I'm thinking of a neo-USSR (but a non-Communist one) consisting of Russia, eastern Belarus, most of Ukraine, and some or all of Central Asia. Also, some or all of the Caucasian states might also join this neo-USSR, but it's probably more doubtful.
Khazahkstan (and the other stans) and Mongolia. Unlike Hungary, the Baltic states, the Balkans, east Germany and etc such states had no chance of breaking free of Russia.
 

The Avenger

Banned
Khazahkstan (and the other stans) and Mongolia. Unlike Hungary, the Baltic states, the Balkans, east Germany and etc such states had no chance of breaking free of Russia.
I don't see Mongolia joining this neo-USSR. It never joined the original USSR and thus I don't see it joining this one either.
 
What if Russia would have regathered a lot of its lost territories after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

They need to prevent the SSRs from seceding from the USSR, perhaps by creating a new organization, even if it is merely nominal. If the SSRs are allowed to unilaterally secede, then they are gone.
 

RousseauX

Donor
This was entirety possible even in 1991 otl, one possible outcome for the commonwealth of independent states is for it to turn into a new union treaty style confederation. Indeed at the time of the soviet dissolution most people did think the union was going to continue on in some other form.

Support for a new union treaty was high in every ssr outside of georgia and the baltics, a different set of leadership cpuld easily have made a russian led confederation of most of the former ssrs around the time the ussr collapsed. The dissolution of the ussr never had popular support outside of the baltics and georgia
 

The Avenger

Banned
They need to prevent the SSRs from seceding from the USSR, perhaps by creating a new organization, even if it is merely nominal. If the SSRs are allowed to unilaterally secede, then they are gone.
Belarus, Kazakhstan, and parts of Ukraine were willing to sign up for the Eurasian Union, though--and that was almost a quarter-century after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
 

The Avenger

Banned
This was entirety possible even in 1991 otl, one possible outcome for the commonwealth of independent states is for it to turn into a new union treaty style confederation. Indeed at the time of the soviet dissolution most people did think the union was going to continue on in some other form.

Support for a new union treaty was high in every ssr outside of georgia and the baltics, a different set of leadership cpuld easily have made a russian led confederation of most of the former ssrs around the time the ussr collapsed. The dissolution of the ussr never had popular support outside of the baltics and georgia
Is it fair to say that Yeltsin caused the collapse of the USSR because he didn't want to share power with Gorbachev?
 

RousseauX

Donor
Is it fair to say that Yeltsin caused the collapse of the USSR because he didn't want to share power with Gorbachev?
competely, the Belavezha accords was a coup by Yeltsin against gorbachev by simply dissolving the ussr which gorbachev was the president of

a different set of leadership, or maybe if yeltsin got elected president of the ussr it probably would have lasted
 

The Avenger

Banned
competely, the Belavezha accords was a coup by Yeltsin against gorbachev by simply dissolving the ussr which gorbachev was the president of

a different set of leadership, or maybe if yeltsin got elected president of the ussr it probably would have lasted
Are you sure that the other republics would have agreed to a Russian-flavored USSR?
 

RousseauX

Donor
That was in March 1991, though. Over 90% voted for Ukrainian independence in December 1991.
The Ukrainian referendum took place after the august coup which discredited the soviet government, which could have easily being butterflied out

The other thing is that the fact that over 70% was willing to vote to continue the union in march going to 90% pro-independence mean that public opinion was pretty malleable, a political leadership in ukraine which wanted to stay in a confederation and play it off as "independent ukraine in the context of the new union treaty" could have done it
 

The Avenger

Banned
The Ukrainian referendum took place after the august coup which discredited the soviet government, which could have easily being butterflied out

The other thing is that the fact that over 70% was willing to vote to continue the union in march going to 90% pro-independence mean that public opinion was pretty malleable, a political leadership in ukraine which wanted to stay in a confederation and play it off as "independent ukraine in the context of the new union treaty" could have done it
That's probably a good point.
 
WI Gorby had died during the coup attempt? Would Yeltsin have made a bid for the top spot and tried to keep the whole (sans the Baltics) thing together ?
 

elkarlo

Banned
If the ethnic Russians had a higher fertility rate, I think this would lead to Russias ability to be able to send in immigrants and hold or take control of bordering areas
 
The Ukrainian referendum took place after the august coup which discredited the soviet government, which could have easily being butterflied out

The other thing is that the fact that over 70% was willing to vote to continue the union in march going to 90% pro-independence mean that public opinion was pretty malleable, a political leadership in ukraine which wanted to stay in a confederation and play it off as "independent ukraine in the context of the new union treaty" could have done it
If the political leadership was tied to Moscow its obvious the results would favor Moscow . 90% is a very large number for let's leave. Which means it was larger than thought before August.

Could the CIS have turned into a new union. It still could. Depends on how it is planned to be run. Noone wants to be subservient to Moscow anymore if they are not in Russia already. Better a loose union than to be tied up and have the old days return.

Last chance to save the union was August of 91. After the coup the central party was done and the old system utterly discredited
 
If the old state stays in business then it just remains the ussr with the same top players.

If the coup succeeds then the state is still finished as things were going downhill rapidly. Everything came to a head at this point. The only reform too stay afloat was let those go who wanted too go. Stop subsidizing the eastern block, east Germany and other states were done. It was clear no one wanted the system that was forced on them.

Russians wanted a better life, the cp wasn't going to do that. They couldn't adapt fast enough.

No coup then the vote for the union treaty happens and you have a chance to keep the Soviet Union

Last note: chernobyl, Afghanistan, erratic reforms, the clear divide between East and west, lack of personal freedoms to at least non state sponsors circus killed the Soviet Union.. Levi's and rock N roll killed the Soviet union
 
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RousseauX

Donor
lack of personal freedoms to at least non state sponsors circus killed the Soviet Union.. Levi's and rock N roll killed the Soviet union
I think that's a myth, what killed it was Gorbachev's reforms

China today has plenty of western culture, but the CCP is still in power

North Korea has one of the least personally free societies on earth, but the Kims are still in power

What killed the USSR was Gorbachev voluntarily giving up the CPSU's political monopoly
 

The Avenger

Banned
I think that's a myth, what killed it was Gorbachev's reforms

China today has plenty of western culture, but the CCP is still in power

North Korea has one of the least personally free societies on earth, but the Kims are still in power

What killed the USSR was Gorbachev voluntarily giving up the CPSU's political monopoly
That's probably true. Of course, given the dislike that some Russians have for Central Asians, one would wonder whether it would have been best for them to be in one country.
 
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