Russia and Turkey exchange Armenian and Muslim populations

What if after the massacres of Armenians by Ottomans in the 1890s, Russia decides to do a humane and pragmatic thing, influenced by the council of other great powers, and takes in the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire as refugees and gets Turkey to take in the Muslim population of the border Russian provinces in which the Armenians are to be resettled? This would solve the Armenian question in a humane way and also help secure the borders of the two countries. What do you guys think of this?
 
I am not sure if etnic cleansing (and forced population transfers are a form of ethnic cleansing) is a humane way of solving a problem.
It was the only somewhat humane way at least. To have expected the Ottomans to change their ways was like waiting for the proverbial leopard to change his spots.
 
It was the only somewhat humane way at least. To have expected the Ottomans to change their ways was like waiting for the proverbial leopard to change his spots.
Err, what? The Armenian Genocide could easily have been avoided with a 20th-century POD. (and why the focus on Ottoman culpability in the Hamidian massacres and not, say, the Russians' role in the Circassian genocide?)
 
Err, what? The Armenian Genocide could easily have been avoided with a 20th-century POD. (and why the focus on Ottoman culpability in the Hamidian massacres and not, say, the Russians' role in the Circassian genocide?)
Avoided how? No ww1? What about the opression and humiliations endured by the Armenians under Ottoman misrule? Circassian genocide? You mean their largely voluntary mass emigration from Circassia to Turkey?
 
Avoided how? No ww1? What about the opression and humiliations endured by the Armenians under Ottoman misrule? Circassian genocide? You mean their largely voluntary mass emigration from Circassia to Turkey?

"Voluntary", really? What happened in Circassia and the Muslim regions of the Caucasus was by no means a voluntary mass migration, since entire societies don't just uproot themselves in the face of opposition. Russia could have subdued the Caucasus Muslims without mass murder/ethnic cleansing the same way the Ottoman Empire post-Hamidian massacres didn't need to commit the Armenian genocide (a mixture of murder and ethnic cleansing/expulsion).
 
"Voluntary", really? What happened in Circassia and the Muslim regions of the Caucasus was by no means a voluntary mass migration, since entire societies don't just uproot themselves in the face of opposition. Russia could have subdued the Caucasus Muslims without mass murder/ethnic cleansing the same way the Ottoman Empire post-Hamidian massacres didn't need to commit the Armenian genocide (a mixture of murder and ethnic cleansing/expulsion).
Ok, mea culpa. I don't know much about the Circassian genocide, but this thread is about the plight of the Armenians. Even without the Armenian genocide, the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire faced persecution, harassment, discrimination, violence at the hands of Kurds and other injustices. Their situation was intolerable and they were no longer the majority in their historic homeland for a long time. The only solution was to be resettled in Russian Transcaucasia and for at least part of the Muslim population in Russian Armenia to be transferred to Turkey.
 
I would expect it would be the Azerbaijani whichj would be traded for the Armenians, while the Ottomans may not be entire happy about this (as the Azerbaijani are Shia), it would have some interesting effects. We get a large Armenia on the Russian southern border. The new Ottoman settlers will be Turks and likely very anti-Russian, so it will strengthen the eastern Ottoman border, it will also weaken the Kurdish position in eastern Turkey, as they could expand into former Armenian area in OTL. If WWI end up as in OTL the post-WWI Turkey will be significant less Sunni and have a much more developed east. Turkey will likely also be much more focused on expanding into Iranian Azerbaijan, while the Iranians will look for opportunity to expand into eastern Turkey.
 
I would expect it would be the Azerbaijani whichj would be traded for the Armenians, while the Ottomans may not be entire happy about this (as the Azerbaijani are Shia), it would have some interesting effects. We get a large Armenia on the Russian southern border. The new Ottoman settlers will be Turks and likely very anti-Russian, so it will strengthen the eastern Ottoman border, it will also weaken the Kurdish position in eastern Turkey, as they could expand into former Armenian area in OTL. If WWI end up as in OTL the post-WWI Turkey will be significant less Sunni and have a much more developed east. Turkey will likely also be much more focused on expanding into Iranian Azerbaijan, while the Iranians will look for opportunity to expand into eastern Turkey.

The dislike of Shia's is less in these years. Enver Pasha's forces moved as far as Baku through Shia Azerbaijani lands and still prefered each other than Russians or Armenians.
 
What if after the massacres of Armenians by Ottomans in the 1890s, Russia decides to do a humane and pragmatic thing, influenced by the council of other great powers, and takes in the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire as refugees and gets Turkey to take in the Muslim population of the border Russian provinces in which the Armenians are to be resettled? This would solve the Armenian question in a humane way and also help secure the borders of the two countries. What do you guys think of this?

What would make the Russians accept this agreement if it even were to happen? The existence of Christians in Ottoman Territory is what justified Russia's wars with the Ottomans post-1815. I can't see the Czar agrees with such plans.
 
I would expect it would be the Azerbaijani whichj would be traded for the Armenians, while the Ottomans may not be entire happy about this (as the Azerbaijani are Shia), it would have some interesting effects. We get a large Armenia on the Russian southern border. The new Ottoman settlers will be Turks and likely very anti-Russian, so it will strengthen the eastern Ottoman border, it will also weaken the Kurdish position in eastern Turkey, as they could expand into former Armenian area in OTL. If WWI end up as in OTL the post-WWI Turkey will be significant less Sunni and have a much more developed east. Turkey will likely also be much more focused on expanding into Iranian Azerbaijan, while the Iranians will look for opportunity to expand into eastern Turkey.
I don't think the uprooting of the whole Azerbaijiani population was a good idea and probably it would never had been done. A better solution was to only exchange the Muslim population of the lands of what are now Armenia and Karabakh and neighbouring areas, which already had Armenian majorities.
 
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"Voluntary", really? What happened in Circassia and the Muslim regions of the Caucasus was by no means a voluntary mass migration, since entire societies don't just uproot themselves in the face of opposition. Russia could have subdued the Caucasus Muslims without mass murder/ethnic cleansing the same way the Ottoman Empire post-Hamidian massacres didn't need to commit the Armenian genocide (a mixture of murder and ethnic cleansing/expulsion).
Russian spent 46 years fighting the Circassian and other groups, while of course "voluntary movement" is BS for this very fact it's also true that the Russian didn't exactly had a way to subjugate the area without some sort of heavy handed strategy.
 
Russian spent 46 years fighting the Circassian and other groups, while of course "voluntary movement" is BS for this very fact it's also true that the Russian didn't exactly had a way to subjugate the area without some sort of heavy handed strategy.

There was no true viable solution for the Caucasus on either side of the border given Russian and Ottoman imperialism and nationalism.

Huh, that’s still pretty much true today
 
It would help stabilize the Russo-Ottoman border and the border regions.

It would help. But never in history did the Russians care for that. Otherwise they would not interact on the Southern side of the Danube. The Ottoman Rule in the Balkans were thwarted by the Russians which seemed stable enough around 1812. It only destabilise it more.

All I can say is, the czars would not waste an existing casus belli in order to 'stabilise' the Russo-Ottoman border.

Unless you get a Peter III kind of czar obsessed with existing structure. Otherwise I would not see this happen.
 
It would help. But never in history did the Russians care for that. Otherwise they would not interact on the Southern side of the Danube. The Ottoman Rule in the Balkans were thwarted by the Russians which seemed stable enough around 1812. It only destabilise it more.

All I can say is, the czars would not waste an existing casus belli in order to 'stabilise' the Russo-Ottoman border.

Unless you get a Peter III kind of czar obsessed with existing structure. Otherwise I would not see this happen.
You show your bias as a Turk. Ottoman rule in the Balkans was oppresive towards Christians, just like in Ottoman Armenia. Of course there was no need to stabilize the border there.
 
You show your bias as a Turk. Ottoman rule in the Balkans was oppresive towards Christians, just like in Ottoman Armenia. Of course there was no need to stabilize the border there.

The Turks never had to do things like the Hamidian massacres or the even more horrifying Armenian genocide. There were plenty of paths to reform the 19th century Ottoman Empire might have followed which would involve no oppression and no mass murder of Christians.
 
You show your bias as a Turk. Ottoman rule in the Balkans was oppresive towards Christians, just like in Ottoman Armenia. Of course there was no need to stabilize the border there.

What? I am not even saying it was a heaven. If you can read i say STABLE. Stable as in having order and control over multiple ethnicities and religions in the area.

Ottoman rule was not always good but still not as opressive as you try to tell. Up until the 1880s there was not a single problem with Armenians. Hell, the 19th century Ottoman Rule was not favorable for Muslims with the land reforms. So much for your opressiveness...

P.S. either stay on your topic or do not react to me. I reacted why a population exchange would not take place, not discuss if the Otto's were angels/Demons...
 
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