You know what I see? After Cuba invades, Ryzhkov has a harsh argument with the Cuban ambassador, whereupon the ambassador reveals that the Cuban government was already aware of his true attitude towards Cuba, and rebukes him for expecting that Cuba would continue following the Soviet line, when the Soviets failed to come to Cuba's aid during its time of need, and indeed, Ryzhkov willingly abandoned it, with the idea that "Castro could reconnect with his rebel roots.
Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears
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Bookmark1995
Banned
The Rummyhorror update indicated that the breakaway regions of the US were receiving aid from Europe and Asia.
I don't see how the Cubans, even with tons of defectors, could have invaded Florida otherwise, unless someone sent them guns and men to do so.
I think Denton's willingness to back away from foreign commitments was one of the reasons why the CV turned on him.
One example of where the CVs would be very keen on keeping would be South Africa. OTL, a lot of religious fanatics were pro-apartheid. But the CVs would also enormous investment in South African gold and minerals, provided cheaply through forced labor, and would be angered by Denton pulling the plug.
OTL, Pat Robertson actually owned a diamond mine in the Congo. He was reported to have used aid to the Rwandan refugees to deliver mining equipment to the mine, instead of resources to help victims of ethnic cleansing.
The CVs and their goals are as much about economics as they are about political and spiritual gains.
Yeah, that Dorman guy seemed genuinely angry at Rummy's shenanigans with the military, unlike the CVs who saw it as an opportunity to knock him out of power. Dorman sees American military as a "sword of god" and would be probably aghast at using the sword on a population. Like Denton, I think he would have been humbled by the murder of wounded soldiers, and would have eventually sympathized with the seceding regions and peaceful attempts to bring them back into the union.
PS: What did you think of my movie idea?
Probably Portugal, given they were Cuba's main line of support during the invasion.
Bookmark1995
Banned
But they in turn were backed by the USSR. As I said, the Europeans and Asians, recognizing the CVs as threat to existence, backed anybody who could bring them down. Including probably Cuba. Maybe Ryzhkov changed his mind.
PS: What did you think of my movie idea? I've had it in my head for a little while now.
It seems that Portugal has a certain degree of independence from Moscow, though (likely because of distance and their communist government, like Yugoslavia, came from a domestic revolution, not because the Soviets installed a government by force), much more than the other countries in the Warsaw Pact. So, their behavior (as seen during the Cuban invasion) might not be wholly reflective of Europe's or Soviet attitudes. Also, Ryzhov is portrayed as a pragmatist (I don't know if he is in real life, I'm speaking solely TTL), so he probably wouldn't approve of an invasion during a particularly volitile time like that, especially with the CV's throwing nukes around.
As always, you did a excellent job making a TTL movie, which feels like a movie made in universe and something that I personally would like to watch.
Bookmark1995
Banned
But what does that "independence" translate into. Are they a more open society than the Soviet Union? Do they find the liberal communism of Enrico Berlinguer to be more useful than Stalinist Communism?
I get that he's more pragmatic, but I think European countries decided that toppling the CVs were more important then ever.
Thank you. I based it off my own head canon about how the libertarian communes would be seen by native Idahoans: they would be somewhat hostile to the people who exploit the libertine ideals of the Libertarians, but I think they would eventually embrace Libertarians after seeing the GOP betray them so brutally.
I also imagined Jon Voight doing this kind of movie, because it reflects how his own TTL political views would evolve: he would be an open Rumsfeld supporter, but would regret such support after learning about Rummy's crimes.
Teshuvah
Banned
Wikipedia's notability requirement is a perfect example of following the letter of the law and not the spirit.
I'm guessing it's, like I referenced earlier, sort of a Western European Yugoslavia, except technically still aligned with the USSR. While still technically a single-party dictatorship, I'm guessing it's more liberal than most of Eastern Bloc, and, if I recall correctly, it has good relations with the rest of Western Europe, so there might be trade and the Portuguese might have access to European goods along Soviet made ones.
Bookmark1995
Banned
That being said, I wonder what impact Berlinguer and Bobbio have had on international communism? Did he hold a strong influence over international leftists. How does the USSR see him?
I get the impression that Berlinguer, because of his reputation for honesty and belief in the democratic process, would initially be seen by Moscow as a threat. Do Berlinguer and Ryzhkov get along, with Ryzkhov seeing Berlinguer as a positive force in the spread of communism, and Berlinguer seeing Ryzhkov as good reformer who is making communism more palatable?
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Yeah, but still, even by their standards, I'd like to think they could at least defend FLORIDA.
You assume they wanted to - after Rummy and with the CV on the loose, many people may feel Cuban rule would be an improvement. I know I would...
I do find Cuba's invasion very implausible, but keep in mind, the US is in a messy Civil War with the CVs throwing around WMDs. Hell, if the CV's had shown their true colors by the time they're on Florida's doorstep, it's possible Florida's residents would WELCOME the Cubans.
Did Cuba's invasion ultimately fail? If so, we'll see a reverse of the boat people fleeing to Cuba from Florida, including former boat people who fled Castro decades ago. The irony...
Bookmark1995
Banned
There are a lot of things that could have pushed Floridans to =t welcome Castro's army.
In the update where Rumsfeld tried to push McCloskey out of his job, the Florida governor, drugstore magnate Jack Eckerd, claimed he was mortified by Rumsfeld's war on democracy. By time Rummy was pushed out the door, I think Eckerd would be actively resisting Rumsfeldia.
Potentially, he was so scared of the CVs, he opened the door to Castro's forces out of desperation.
I also think that Florida's Cuban community would have been aghast at the war crimes committed by the Liberty Legions against the island. Even if they don't like communists, they would have shed tears over what the administration they trusted did to the island they still longed for.
Also the CVs weren't just anticommunist, but anti-Catholic. So even wealthy Miami Cubans - that is, those who didn't renounce their Catholicism-would have been in their crosshairs. So I can imagine young Miami Cubans joining forces with Castro out of desperation.
Florida's Jewish community would also be wary of these madmen pushing Christ, seeing their psycho-Zionism as a detriment rather than a benefit to Israel.
So there are a lot of things that could drive Floridans to welcome Castro with open arms.
And Castro would have every reason to treat the Floridans nicely. He would not want to shred his image as a hero, and I think he would very welcoming of Floridans (not just Cubans) to the island itself, since they have the skills needed to modernize the island. He also wants to get European guns, since Ryzhkov proved to be a let down, so he needs good PR. Maybe after the civil war, life in Cuba would be decent, not just in comparison to the CV, but because Castro moderated his policies in order to make the former Floridans feel right at home on his island.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
Something like that, except without sweatshops. The thing is, Cuba has a remarkably developed health care (their AIDS epidemic has been stifled) and education system. The problem is, educated people can't make much money, which is why most Cubans prefer to be cab drivers than dentists.
If Cuba can reform its economy, keep its welfare state, AND welcome skilled Floridans, it could be an excellent place to live.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I thought of a way to make Liberty Legions and cooperate stooges even more despicable than they all ready are. I bet that most of them only got their jobs through bribery and connections. The former may compose of people who never even fought any wars.
Imagine being a war veteran who has fought against America's enemies, and you try to take a stand against such abuses. I bet the Legions may berate you and attack you, and the corporate stooges may screw you, and both launch a campaign to label you "a pro-Soviet traitor". If you fought in Korea or Vietnam, that accusation would turn your face red. But imagine being a World War II veterans, seeing fascism come alive in America:
In fact, I might write out one such scene from my in-universe movie that reflect such TTL incidents.
Excerpt from "Screenplay of The Commune"
(Police Chief Richard Shellworth meets with a corporate lawyer named DaVento in his office. DaVento is sitting in front of his desk with a calm but condescending expression, wearing a luxurious business suit. Standing behind him is a Liberty Legion officer named Tim. His face is that of a hungry but joyful lion looking for blood)
RICHARD SHELLWORTH: How can I help you, sir.
DAVENTO: Well, a, Mr. Shellworth. I filed a report about 3 weeks ago on the Ark Foods Cooperative.
RICHARD: (slightly annoyed at his title being forgotten): That's officer to you!
DAVENTO: (frowns but smiles again): Sorry, Officer.
RICHARD: Yes, I happen to (pause) catch that report.
DAVENTO: And?
RICHARD: Well, sir that report I received was the most lunatic thing that ever crossed my desk in my 27 years in law enforcement. And I received UFO reports once or twice. (He pulls out the report, and puts on glasses to read) 'The Ark Commune pursues a commie-left wing agenda through its illicit commercial activities and licentious practices'. (Takes glasses off). These people make beer and cheese, not protest songs and commie propaganda. (Forces a chuckle)
TIM: (screaming) These people are- (Tim stops when DAVENTO raises his hand).
DAVENTO: Sir, surely you can read between the lines, and understand what values these people are threatening.
RICHARD: Yes, indeed sir, I have read between the lines. (DaVento and Tim smile). When you mentioned your name twice, I decided to do my own digging. (pulls out a document) 'Mr. Tommy DaVento. Partner of DaVento and Barnes, a law firm found in St. Louis. (DaVento frowns) You represent some of the biggest brewing companies in America'. Seems like there is a bit of a conflict of interest there. Sounds like you just want to knock off some competition. (pulls out a bottle of Ark Brew, to the chagrin of DaVento). Why not make a better beer? Isn't that what free markets allow you to do?
DAVENTO: Sir, are you aware that Roth dodged the draft. He ignored his country when it called.
RICHARD: Oh really, sir? You find that aggravating? Where are your stripes? (DaVento fliches). I was annoyed when I found out Roth dodged the draft. But he paid his debt to society, and now he makes beer.
DAVENTO (nervously): Officer, this beer was made through collective exploitation. To allow it to be made in an unnatural-
RICHARD: Unnatural is forcing a man to work 12 hours a day, like what you people do! That barely leaves a man time to sleep, let alone care for his children. I don't care for Roth, but when I see the people who work for him, they smile when they leave from AND go to work. Why should be unnatural to love where you work?
(pause)
DAVENTO (serious): You and Tim will go tomorrow and arrest Roth, and put an end to this commie enterprise.
RICHARD (stonefaced): Is that a suggestion, or a request?
TIM (storming up to the desk): It is a demand! By law, the Legions must shut down this enterprise.
RICHARD: Under what law?
TIM: The law that states (reading a document) "any enterprise which is suspected to infringe upon freedom and the free market can be shut down at the request of any business leader who properly suspects it. And this...commune has "anti-freedom" written all over it. (hands the document over to Richard, who reads it. He looks up.)
RICHARD (growling, glaring at Tim): Listen boy, don't you dare lecture me on freedom. Before you were born, I fought in Dragoon under General Devers. I fought the madmen in Germany. I know what freedom is, and what it isn't. This bullshit your spewing is NOT freedom.
(Tears up the document, enraging Tim, who storms up to the table, and knocks of the beer bottle off of it. He grabs Richard by his collar).
TIM (with a demented grin): I'M GONNA FUCK YOU UP, YOU OLD BAS-
(lets go when Davento puts his hand on Tim's neck)
DAVENTO: Understand sir, that what I do is a patriotic act. That's why I asked Tim to let you go. Because I believe you'll see true freedom. (rising from his chair). Hopefully by this afternoon, when the rest of the Legions arrive, you can convince Mr. Roth to turn himself in.
RICHARD: (breathing heavily): And if I don't?
DAVENTO (shrugging his shoulders): Then you're too far gone without further medical treatment, and will most likely be sent to a mental health center to treat your nervous breakdown. (Turns around but then turns back). And while your gone, your wife will most likely seek help to deal with the stress of an unpatriotic husband, without a legal guardian, your grandchildren will be sent to a... reform school for the rest of their childhoods.
(Davento and Tim leave a pale, shaken and furious Richard).
Imagine being a war veteran who has fought against America's enemies, and you try to take a stand against such abuses. I bet the Legions may berate you and attack you, and the corporate stooges may screw you, and both launch a campaign to label you "a pro-Soviet traitor". If you fought in Korea or Vietnam, that accusation would turn your face red. But imagine being a World War II veterans, seeing fascism come alive in America:
In fact, I might write out one such scene from my in-universe movie that reflect such TTL incidents.
Excerpt from "Screenplay of The Commune"
(Police Chief Richard Shellworth meets with a corporate lawyer named DaVento in his office. DaVento is sitting in front of his desk with a calm but condescending expression, wearing a luxurious business suit. Standing behind him is a Liberty Legion officer named Tim. His face is that of a hungry but joyful lion looking for blood)
RICHARD SHELLWORTH: How can I help you, sir.
DAVENTO: Well, a, Mr. Shellworth. I filed a report about 3 weeks ago on the Ark Foods Cooperative.
RICHARD: (slightly annoyed at his title being forgotten): That's officer to you!
DAVENTO: (frowns but smiles again): Sorry, Officer.
RICHARD: Yes, I happen to (pause) catch that report.
DAVENTO: And?
RICHARD: Well, sir that report I received was the most lunatic thing that ever crossed my desk in my 27 years in law enforcement. And I received UFO reports once or twice. (He pulls out the report, and puts on glasses to read) 'The Ark Commune pursues a commie-left wing agenda through its illicit commercial activities and licentious practices'. (Takes glasses off). These people make beer and cheese, not protest songs and commie propaganda. (Forces a chuckle)
TIM: (screaming) These people are- (Tim stops when DAVENTO raises his hand).
DAVENTO: Sir, surely you can read between the lines, and understand what values these people are threatening.
RICHARD: Yes, indeed sir, I have read between the lines. (DaVento and Tim smile). When you mentioned your name twice, I decided to do my own digging. (pulls out a document) 'Mr. Tommy DaVento. Partner of DaVento and Barnes, a law firm found in St. Louis. (DaVento frowns) You represent some of the biggest brewing companies in America'. Seems like there is a bit of a conflict of interest there. Sounds like you just want to knock off some competition. (pulls out a bottle of Ark Brew, to the chagrin of DaVento). Why not make a better beer? Isn't that what free markets allow you to do?
DAVENTO: Sir, are you aware that Roth dodged the draft. He ignored his country when it called.
RICHARD: Oh really, sir? You find that aggravating? Where are your stripes? (DaVento fliches). I was annoyed when I found out Roth dodged the draft. But he paid his debt to society, and now he makes beer.
DAVENTO (nervously): Officer, this beer was made through collective exploitation. To allow it to be made in an unnatural-
RICHARD: Unnatural is forcing a man to work 12 hours a day, like what you people do! That barely leaves a man time to sleep, let alone care for his children. I don't care for Roth, but when I see the people who work for him, they smile when they leave from AND go to work. Why should be unnatural to love where you work?
(pause)
DAVENTO (serious): You and Tim will go tomorrow and arrest Roth, and put an end to this commie enterprise.
RICHARD (stonefaced): Is that a suggestion, or a request?
TIM (storming up to the desk): It is a demand! By law, the Legions must shut down this enterprise.
RICHARD: Under what law?
TIM: The law that states (reading a document) "any enterprise which is suspected to infringe upon freedom and the free market can be shut down at the request of any business leader who properly suspects it. And this...commune has "anti-freedom" written all over it. (hands the document over to Richard, who reads it. He looks up.)
RICHARD (growling, glaring at Tim): Listen boy, don't you dare lecture me on freedom. Before you were born, I fought in Dragoon under General Devers. I fought the madmen in Germany. I know what freedom is, and what it isn't. This bullshit your spewing is NOT freedom.
(Tears up the document, enraging Tim, who storms up to the table, and knocks of the beer bottle off of it. He grabs Richard by his collar).
TIM (with a demented grin): I'M GONNA FUCK YOU UP, YOU OLD BAS-
(lets go when Davento puts his hand on Tim's neck)
DAVENTO: Understand sir, that what I do is a patriotic act. That's why I asked Tim to let you go. Because I believe you'll see true freedom. (rising from his chair). Hopefully by this afternoon, when the rest of the Legions arrive, you can convince Mr. Roth to turn himself in.
RICHARD: (breathing heavily): And if I don't?
DAVENTO (shrugging his shoulders): Then you're too far gone without further medical treatment, and will most likely be sent to a mental health center to treat your nervous breakdown. (Turns around but then turns back). And while your gone, your wife will most likely seek help to deal with the stress of an unpatriotic husband, without a legal guardian, your grandchildren will be sent to a... reform school for the rest of their childhoods.
(Davento and Tim leave a pale, shaken and furious Richard).
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