Is there a way we could get the Southern Germany states more...well, pissed off at Prussia after the Seven Weeks War? I mean, technically they were at war with Prussia at that time. Perhaps there could be more bloody battles with Southern Germany? I know this is something Bismark wanted to avoid, but say if he fails? Then we go into 1870 with a Southern Germany that doesn't love the NGF.
Rump Second Reich: WI Germany was only Northern Germany?
- Thread starter maverick
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I think so. Just like the UK/Britain continues to be informally called 'England'.
And you got the 'Franco-PRUSSIAN War' despite technically it was a war between France and the North German Confederation.
Indeed, within a few days of its outbreak it was a war between France and all of Germany bar Austria, since Bavaria etc entered the war virtually at once.
If it hapens at all. The Southern states would only have one reason to cooperate - not to be swallowed by the NGC/Prussia. There would be many nationalists who would clamour for joining a Kleindeutsches Reich based around Prussia and others clamouring for a Grossdeutsches Reich based on Austria or on some kind of elective monarchy as per HRE, but noone would clamour for a South German Confederation, it would be just a defensive alliance against both Austria and Prussia. The moment any of the partners would try to dominate it, it would fall apart.
What if the Franco-Prussian war ends in a stalemate or with a slight French advantage? No crowning of a German Emperor in Versailles, a peace that leaves the NGC intact, but Bismarck humbled or even ousted and France plus Austria as the guarantors of the independence of the Southern German states? Seeing the force that Nationalism was at that time, this certainly would call for a re-match at some later point, but one could imagine some combination of alliances and balance-of-powers politics (especially with a stronger, non-humiliated French Empire) to prevent the NGC from swallowing the Southern German states at least for a few decades. Their continued existence would probably prevent a Prussian-Austrian alliance and also an axis France-Berlin, so NGC/Prussia would turn to Russia and Britain for allies; also to Italy with whom it will share an emnity to Austria.
Susano
Banned
No matter what happens, at least the population will always like France even less, though. Propaganda based on the "Liberation Wars" (i.e., the War of the Sixth Coalition) can just too easily be used for that...
Susano
Banned
The Austrian position (that is, of the Austrian government) in regards to Germany wont change. They dont want to lead a German federation, not even a South German federation. Ideally, they wanted Germany to stay disunited and loosely under their dominance, but Prussia ruined that, of course. But I think they still will not lead South Germany, especially not in the 1860s - theyre busy with reforming the Empire, after all.
And of course, economics: The Southern Three are members of the Zollverein. Austria isnt. And "switching" from the Little German into the Austrian customs space would be bad, economically, for South Germany.
And of course, while Bavaria and Württemberg have close relations, Baden is another matter. I mean, by the 60s the succession dispute with Bavaria was 40 years over, but I think they never had the best of relationships...
If the southern German states do end up with worsening relations with the NGF/Prussia, could Hohenzollern be a point of conflict? I know enclaves and exclaves aren’t exactly unusual in Germany, but being cut of from the rest of the state might prove problematic. Could there be an independence movement, or just try to join with Wurttemberg?
Maybe Württemberg would like to grab it on general principles - more territory is always nice. But that would for sure trigger a war that Württemberg would loose, so this only would make sense in the framework of a bigger war (say, AH against NGC) where Württemberg would get Hohenzollern as a reward. I don't see a "join Württemberg" movement as likely. What could happen is that some people would want a return of the Catholic Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen line, especially if we get a more vicious equivalent of the Kulturkampf ITTL. OTOH, the last prince(s) had not been exactly popular.
If we go for the scenario I outlined in my last post, perhaps the Sigmaringen line would get the territory (back) as part of the peace deal after the Franco-Prussian war, as a consolation prize for Leopold not becoming King of Spain.
Just wondering in case there is no southward expansion, there might a stronger push to get the Netherlands on board?
William 1 was married was married to wilhelmina of preussia so a family relation existed( thinking Dutch-Preussian codominion instead of ngc)
it definately would change things
William 1 was married was married to wilhelmina of preussia so a family relation existed( thinking Dutch-Preussian codominion instead of ngc)
it definately would change things
LOL, occasionally I come back to a thread I made and informative post in to see if it made any difference, and this time not only did it not make a blind bit of difference, but it seems to have been ignored completely
And I see people saying "Southern three" so are you somehow assuming that the NGC would be allowed to swallow up all of Hesse-and-by-Rhine ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
And I see people saying "Southern three" so are you somehow assuming that the NGC would be allowed to swallow up all of Hesse-and-by-Rhine ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Susano
Banned
Err, no. "Movement" meaning popular movement that is - in that case there wont be such a thing, because the populace wants a more united Germany, not a more divided Germany. The Hohenzoller...ians?
might not see themselves as Prussians, but at that point its pretty clear that the NGC is a proto-Germany, and hence they will probably want to stay inside that. That would undermine their legitimacy, though. What I mean by that is - a big point of anger about Prussia after 1866 was how it annexed states left and right - old, established, traditional states. That was simply seen as illegtimate. But if now Württemberg goes around doing the same, it loses that crucial argument point against Prussia. And for such a price, its probably not enough land. I mean, anything is possible, I just dont see much of a chance.
German unification, even though done by the monarchs, was based on German nationalism, not dynastic ties, so... no.
Well... it seems to me the chances of a South German Confederation forming are pretty slim, meaning that all 4 would be somewhat neutral...
Well, its at least already associated with the NGC. Its not a "true" South German (as in, not NGC) state anymore, hence. How is that supposed to work, Hesse faring a completly independent course south of the Main, and ignoring it remaining holdings north of the Main which are inside the NGC? I just have trouble imagining that... and that means in regard to German unification, it are indeed the "Southern three" which need to be absorbed or convinced or "convinced"