Rump Czecho-Slovakia as a member of the Axis

[Tocomocho]

Six months ago (sorry for not linking, I'm on mobile) there was a post arguing that the March 1939 partition of 'Czecho-Slovakia' was essentially a gratuitous dick move by Hitler because Hacha's government was already a German puppet for all purpose.

Suppose then, that CS is not further partitioned, and that Hitler merely imposes. a treaty declaring CS a protectorate of Germany and a member of the Antikomintern. Hacha remains president, Tiso is just a Slovak autonomy leader, there is no war against Hungary (or is there?)

Come September, CS declares war on Poland and in 1941 on the Soviet Union.

What happens to CS post-war?

 

[Drewbdu]

This would keep the allies from guaranteeing Poland in all likelihood. The Free City Of Danzig and the Danzig strip would probably be taken from Poland without war, however Hitler was going to go over the WAllies limit and war would happen, probably around the same time as OTL. This could either be advantageous or disadvantageous, as the Czech gold reserves in Prague were really needed to keep the German economy from imploding, however a Czechoslovakian puppet would be better strategically for Germany in a time of war.

 

[KACKO]

Hacha actually remained President anyway but not Czechoslovak but Protectorate President.

I am not sure if Hitler would want Axis Czechoslovak Army on Eastern Front in 1941. If I remember correctly some Czech Nazi leaning and collaborator from Protectorate government proposed to Nazis to sent "Vladni vojsko" (Czech Government Protectorate Army) to Eastern Front. When Hitler learned of the request he was presumably pissed and said he will not allow another Czech legion to be created.

I have feeling individual desertion would be common and after Stalingrad whole units will either desert or not fight to stop Soviets. After all OTL from Slovak soldiers (which fought well in 1941 and 1942) captured around Melitopol in 1943 Czechoslovak 2nd Para Brigade was created in USSR. Of their surrenders is still discussed among Slovak historians but that different story.

As how would be Axis Czechoslovak treated after war?

Depends if Czechoslovak Government in Exile will be created and accepted as well as how many men they will be able to put into Czechoslovak army in Exile. Even OTL especially at west it was not much. Most valued were Czechoslovak pilots. Especially Fighters which distinguished themselves during Battle of France and Battle of Britain. In East especially after influx of Slovaks it reached its peak around 100 000 in 1945 I believe.


With Czechoslovakia not occupied Czech pilots may decide to stay home - as did most of Slovak pilots and defend Czechoslovakia.

It is possible Czechoslovakia would be renewed in its borders but not transfer of Germans will be allowed. Also Czechoslovakia could be outright put into Soviet zone of influence.

However with Czechoslovakia not occupied Germany will not gain 250 LT-35 tanks and over 150 LT-38 tanks which were very useful during campaign against Poland and France. As well as Czechoslovak artillery pieces, MG etc. Czechoslovakia OTL after Munich sold Germany some heavy artillery so some transfer of material could be possible but still.

Interesting would be if Czechoslovakia will start to manufacture some medium tank and also Avia B-135 could reach operational status.

 

[Halagaz]

I have feeling individual desertion would be common and after Stalingrad whole units will either desert or not fight to stop Soviets.

Isn't this basically what happened when Hitler tried using the Protectorate's Army on the Italian front? I can't remember if some units joined the Allies outright.

 

[KACKO]

Isn't this basically what happened when Hitler tried using the Protectorate's Army on the Italian front? I can't remember if some units joined the Allies outright.

I believe their were disarmed later on.
Deserters joined mostly Italian partisan groups as they were sent to rear areas of Italian front. I don't know what was biggest unit deserting as whole. Have some brochure on Protectorate Army I bought some 10 years ago. If interested I can check for you if information is there.

Funny is that for example minister Moravec was offering Czech units for front line duties after Stalingrad.

 

[pattersonautobody]

I was under the impression that Slovakia essentially operated as a puppet ally (they helped invade Poland for example.)

Plus, would a puppet Czeckoslovkia really be useful in war? Would they let Germany invade from their territory adjacent to Poland? Would they be any use versus France, where the tanks made a difference?

 

[Halagaz]

I believe their were disarmed later on.
Deserters joined mostly Italian partisan groups as they were sent to rear areas of Italian front. I don't know what was biggest unit deserting as whole. Have some brochure on Protectorate Army I bought some 10 years ago. If interested I can check for you if information is there.

I'm interested, if you don't mind looking it up.

Funny is that for example minister Moravec was offering Czech units for front line duties after Stalingrad.

Wow. I knew that he was a tool and that he let his son join the SS, but this is on a whole new level.

 

[user23123]

What happens to CS post-war?

What happened to the other Nazi Germany allies like Hungary and Romania could be a point of reference.

However with Czechoslovakia not occupied Germany will not gain 250 LT-35 tanks and over 150 LT-38 tanks which were very useful during campaign against Poland and France. As well as Czechoslovak artillery pieces, MG etc. Czechoslovakia OTL after Munich sold Germany some heavy artillery so some transfer of material could be possible but still.

For the campaign against Poland things are more nuanced since CS has a border with Poland and then CS will have to pay for her freedom some how,again as with the post war situation,the other Nazi Germany allies could be a point of reference,where by CS will not send x number of LT-35 (or you name it),arguing that she needs some for her self and then there will be the other axis members.

 

[Tocomocho]

What about the OTL Hungary-Slovakia War? Is Horthy brave enough to declare war on a rump CS that still controls the Skoda works? If not, does the USSR still annex Carpathian Ruthenia after the war, without the independent Carpathia precedent IOTL?

The bit about the Czech legion is very interesting btw. I had not considered that Hitler's WW2 policy on CS might stem from a WW1 bias.

 

[Zaius]

The bit about the Czech legion is very interesting btw. I had not considered that Hitler's WW2 policy on CS might stem from a WW1 bias.

I generally get the impression that people tend to overestimate the internal consistency of Hitler's so-called ideology, as if it jumped out of Hitler's brain fully formed like Athena instead of perhaps having a few core tenets (such as: living space must be obtained in Russia) but otherwise being made up largely on the fly.

 

[KACKO]

What about the OTL Hungary-Slovakia War? Is Horthy brave enough to declare war on a rump CS that still controls the Skoda works? If not, does the USSR still annex Carpathian Ruthenia after the war, without the independent Carpathia precedent IOTL?

The bit about the Czech legion is very interesting btw. I had not considered that Hitler's WW2 policy on CS might stem from a WW1 bias.

Not likely Hungary will try. even OTL new Slovak Army was basically disabled mostly by having Slovak officers and soldiers still coming from Czech lands, units were on 1/3 of the strength after departure of Czech soldiers etc. At the time Hungarian Army still was not strong enough to accomplish occupation of Ruthenia and be engaged in full scale war along length of border with Slovakia. that's why they attacked only on narrow front. With Czechoslovakia staying together Hungarians need to consider Romanians also. OTL after Hungarians started to occupy Ruthenia Romanians brought their army on the border with Hungarian on full alert and started to bring reinforcements. However after Prague responded that Czechoslovakia basically dissolved and Prague is not expecting Romania to hold onto their commitments to Czechoslovakia they stepped down. Romania was probably Czechoslovakia best ally.

 

[KACKO]

I'm interested, if you don't mind looking it up.

Well quick check confirm that there were mostly individual desertion to Italian partisans. Usually patrols especially in mountain regions. To cover against prosecution towards family members empty casings were left and arms fire to air and area was disrupted by hand granades.mIf desertion proved family members were deported to KL so when investigating desertions Czechs tried to prove that patrols were kinapped by partisans.

In june 1944 over 550 Czech soldiers deserted.

One of battallion vommanders tried to negotiate desertion of whole battalion. German spies managed to discover he is negotiating with partisans however on other side he convinced Germans he is negotiating release of kinapped soldiers.

In february 1945 one of Czech officers with partisans negotiated desertion of some 500 Czech soldiers and 600 Slovaks from Slovak 2nd Technical division.

Instead of joining partisans Czechs mostly preffere to cross Lines and join allies.

That's really short review. Maybe some Czech friend will give us more details.

As to Moravec. Guy seemed to be really nut case. However he was Czech patriot before Munich and seems Munich and decision not to dight just broke himmand he changed ideology to follow. He was legionary in Czechoslovak legions in Russia, Czechoslovak officer and military theorists. Since 1934 in his books he stated Nazi Germany is Czechoslovakia biggest thread. It seems he inclined to Italian type of fascism or limited democracy. however he supported Masaryk and Benes. After Munich he openly showed his hatred toward Benes for accepting Munich. because of that he has to leave Military collage ehere he was teaching and was forbidden to publish his writings.

After occupation he was afraid he will be prosecuted by Nazis however they invided him to tour Germany. He returned as their man. Really sorry case. If Czechoslovakia was fighting he would be probably remembered as great soldier and commander.

 

[Halagaz]

<snip>

Interesting, thanks.