Ruminations on a Portuguese Australia

[TheKutKu]

In the book "História Trágico-Marítima em que se escrevem cronologicamente os naufrágios que tiveram as naus de Portugal, depois que se pôs em exercício a navegação da Índia" by Bernardo Gomes de Brito published in 1735, in the chapter " Naufrágio da Nau «S. Paulo» na ilha de Samatra no ano de 1561" .
In this chapter is stated that because the ship arrived to late in the season to the Cape region to follow the normal route to Goa, the pilot follow the course to Sumatra to be in Malacca in February so it could go in the convoy to Goa.
So they navigate to the East-Southeast , passing the 42º South, at some point the duration of the days was of 15 hours and the ship masts wore covered with ice, after near 3 months they start go North, on 20th of January they wore in the equator line and near land but a storm shipwreck them in the 22nd of January.
As the writer says the route was used only by the most seasoned pilots due to the greats perils of shipwrecking in Sumatra, or on the very rare direct Lisbon-Malacca navegations.
Actualy the island of St, Paul is named after this ship.
So the Portuguese knew the route but as the Vice-Kingdom was centred in Goa all routes tend to go there first.


About Camels the Portuguese can easily obtain them from Goa via the horse trade with the Persians or in Diu trading with people from Rajasthan.

Oh interesting! I didn't know the portuguese knew about the roaring forties, yeah makes sense why they didn’t use them. Tho I wonder if the irriguées could get more familiar with it had they decided to establish themselves at the cape back in the early 16th century, from there a Portuguese Australia by 1600?

And for camels, I was going to say that Portugal still had possessions in the Moroccan coast so they could get them from the berbers there, but after seeing the new answers, yeah, Persia and India seem more likely

Oh that didn’t cross my mind as sources of camel! Tho admittedly they are a bit further and less evident then the Afghan and Indian cameler, and also earlier making transportation harder. But it’s sure they would be very useful in the Bush. I also think they could spread along the aboriginal’s developped trade routes (along with illness :/), and potentially revolutionise their society, in The same way horses revolutionised the societies of many central-western American Indians. A French or British colony in eastern Australia Morrowind than 50 years after the Portuguese may encounter camel riding aboriginal, wth larger polities , partial resistance to European illness and occasionaly better weaponry from the trade routes.

Also I didn’t know that Portuguese still had a presence in Kong until 1748! I knew it was at that point they removed their embassy in Teheran but thought they had lost their Persian factories in the 17th century along with the Arabian one

There was still the Portuguese factory at Kung/Kong where they traded with the Safavids, though it was abandoned by 1748. I imagine Southern Persia would be an area with camels. Additionally the Armenian traders with licenses at Dio were known to trade in the Makran well into the XVIII century.

 

[Viriato]

Also I didn’t know that Portuguese still had a presence in Kong until 1748! I knew it was at that point they removed their embassy in Teheran but thought they had lost their Persian factories in the 17th century along with the Arabian one

In the XVIII century the Safavids had hoped that the Portuguese would send a fleet against the Omanis and Goa ruminated about doing so in 1720. A monastery with Augustinian friars in Isfahan under Portuguese protection would serve as the unofficial Portuguese embassy until the mid XVIII century. If camels were to be imported to be imported, this would be the most obvious source. I think some fail to realise that Portuguese ships did still trade in areas not under Portuguese rule. In the East Indies, Portuguese-flagged vessels traded to Makassar, Borneo and the Philippines and these were not under Portuguese rule. Once, Muscat had been lost, the Portuguese ships tended to trade with Basra and Kong.

However, I imagine that camels would not be a priority early on. Horses from Arabia via Goa would be the most likely beasts of burden imported during the first century of so of colonisation.

 

[Nasei]

Oh interesting! I didn't know the portuguese knew about the roaring forties, yeah makes sense why they didn’t use them. Tho I wonder if the irriguées could get more familiar with it had they decided to establish themselves at the cape back in the early 16th century, from there a Portuguese Australia by 1600?

It could help, but to get a regular route the Portuguese must have a bigger presence in Southeast Asia then in OTL.

And if the settlers don´t mind smaller breads of horses, they can get them near Australia; the Flores pony and the Timor pony,

 

[Phalamus]

The whole discussion about the brower route is of course interesting, but, given that the Portuguese will actually be looking mostly for a way to connect Western Australia to China (where most of the sandalwood went) and not Europe, wouldn't it make more sense to just extend the already existing Timor route and then just travel along the australian coast? You don't really need to have a direct connection between Lisbon and Australia...

 

[mrmandias]

Would you develop an *Austro-Portugese ethnicity speaking a Portugese dialect of some kind (or maybe a pidgin) and practicing Catholicism, or would the area long-term be more dominated by the Chinese or some other specific ethnic group?

 

[Nasei]

The whole discussion about the brower route is of course interesting, but, given that the Portuguese will actually be looking mostly for a way to connect Western Australia to China (where most of the sandalwood went) and not Europe, wouldn't it make more sense to just extend the already existing Timor route and then just travel along the australian coast? You don't really need to have a direct connection between Lisbon and Australia...

Giving the Chinese interest in sandalwood some of they would move to Australia and there they would look for other commodities, like pearls, turtle shells and specially trepang.
I just don´t know if the Chinese wore interested in whale and seal products, bit in OTL when possible the Portuguese wore on whaling and sealing.
The Chinese traders in Canton would invest and send representatives to Australia, just has they had in Macau, in Makassar and in Lifau, these wore the main ports the Portuguese used un Sandalwood trade.
Lifau was the center of Portuguese activities in Timor until in OTL the Dutch in Kupang started to expand in western Timor and was decided to change that center to Dili.
As such I would expect to see two main trading posts in Australia, one in the North to get access to the pearls, turtles and trepang and another in the South to get the sandalwood.
Then the route would be like: Canton-Macau-Makassar-Lifau-Northwestern Australia-Southwestern Australia.
But when the gold is discovered, then there will be a direct route from Lisbon to Australia, after all the 20% tax on gold must be charged.

Would you develop an *Austro-Portugese ethnicity speaking a Portugese dialect of some kind (or maybe a pidgin) and practicing Catholicism, or would the area long-term be more dominated by the Chinese or some other specific ethnic group?

Due to the long isolation of the Australian population most will die from the diseases introduced by the traders, and that will be compound with deaths from the alcohol they get in trading and from violence from those traders (either in war, in personal violence or being enslaved).

So I would expect the population on the trade centers to be of Timorese, MaKassans, Topazes (people of Malay and Portuguese origin) followed by the Chinese and the Portuguese.

 

[Phalamus]

I just don´t know if the Chinese wore interested in whale and seal products

I did a quick search on whale products in China. Didn't find much, but apparently, they called Ambergris "dragon's spittle fragrance", so presumably they knew that they could use it as a fixative for scents.

As for seals, they certainly appeared to buy a lot of furs from the British and the Americans...

So maybe the Portuguese can tap into that market earlier if they have an Australian colony.

Then the route would be like: Canton-Macau-Makassar-Lifau-Northwestern Australia-Southwestern Australia.

Yeah, I think this makes sense. So I guess this means that a Portuguese Australia would most likely form part of a "Portuguese East Indies" that would also include Timor, Flores, Sulawesi and the Moluccas (mostly as a "sphere of influence" until the borders get formalized in the 19th century), effectively diving present-day Indonesia into a Dutch west and luso-australian East.

Due to the long isolation of the Australian population most will die from the diseases introduced by the traders, and that will be compound with deaths from the alcohol they get in trading and from violence from those traders (either in war, in personal violence or being enslaved).

Well, yes, but I think that a much earlier, slower and more gradual settlement of Australia as compared to OTL would give arboriginal populations a lot of time and space to recover. Also, given the smaller settler population and increased difficulty in projecting power in the region, the Portuguese would have more of a reason to establish more productive relationships with at least some arboriginal groups as compared to the British. So, in the end, while its undeniable that arboriginal numbers will plunge as a result of the introduction of Eurasian diseases followed by violence and other colonial complications, I think that in the long term they will remain a significant part of the Australian population. And also, there's mestiços, who will be born in great number during the early years of colonization (especially considering that trader/settler population, be it Portuguese, southeast asian or Chinese, is guaranteed to be disproportionately male) and have immunity to the new diseases.

So I would expect the population on the trade centers to be of Timorese, MaKassans, Topazes (people of Malay and Portuguese origin) followed by the Chinese and the Portuguese.

I would also add Africans to that list since most Portuguese ports in Asia appeared to have sizeable slave-populations. The numbers of Chinese and Portuguese settlers would, of course, greatly increase after the discovery of gold.

The term Topasses/Topazes is a bit muddled, given that the British used it to refer to basically all luso-asians, but traditionally, it refered more to a specific group of mixed-raced people who inhabited the Timor and Flores island (they probably weren't malay but resulted from intermarriages between Portuguese and natives from these island, though of course, the term "malay" was muddled as well at this time). I don't see a lot of them settling in Australia, given that they typically did not have the best relations with the Portuguese colonial authorities, which means there will probably be effort to keep them out. Now, mixed-raced luso-asians in general is another story, as they would definitely be present in large numbers.

 

[Nasei]

Well, yes, but I think that a much earlier, slower and more gradual settlement of Australia as compared to OTL would give arboriginal populations a lot of time and space to recover. Also, given the smaller settler population and increased difficulty in projecting power in the region, the Portuguese would have more of a reason to establish more productive relationships with at least some arboriginal groups as compared to the British. So, in the end, while its undeniable that arboriginal numbers will plunge as a result of the introduction of Eurasian diseases followed by violence and other colonial complications, I think that in the long term they will remain a significant part of the Australian population. And also, there's mestiços, who will be born in great number during the early years of colonization (especially considering that trader/settler population, be it Portuguese, southeast asian or Chinese, is guaranteed to be disproportionately male) and have immunity to the new diseases.

Agree, the settlers will be in small numbers and spread in a longer period of time that will allow the locals to recover their numbers, even if many will be only partial Aboriginal.

I would also add Africans to that list since most Portuguese ports in Asia appeared to have sizeable slave-populations. The numbers of Chinese and Portuguese settlers would, of course, greatly increase after the discovery of gold.

Agree on both accounts .

The term Topasses/Topazes is a bit muddled, given that the British used it to refer to basically all luso-asians, but traditionally, it refered more to a specific group of mixed-raced people who inhabited the Timor and Flores island (they probably weren't malay but resulted from intermarriages between Portuguese and natives from these island, though of course, the term "malay" was muddled as well at this time). I don't see a lot of them settling in Australia, given that they typically did not have the best relations with the Portuguese colonial authorities, which means there will probably be effort to keep them out. Now, mixed-raced luso-asians in general is another story, as they would definitely be present in large numbers.

Yes, the term is too much muddled, maybe a more correct name would be Larantukans, because of their biggest settlement in Flores Island.

And true they wore very troublesome when their interest didn´t coincide with those of the Portuguese Empire, but when they coincide, they wore very steadfast guardians of the empire, some wore even governors of Timor.


By Luso-Asians which group you think will go to Australia?

• Goans and other Luso-Indians (due to a lack of a proper name) form India? These I expect would appear after the start of the gold rushes.
• Burgher from Sri Lanka? Again, I expect would appear after the start of the gold rushes.
• Bayingyi of Burma? That depends of PoD and they are very inland in Burma…
• The Luso-Thai? They wore part of the military of the Thai King, possible?
• Kristiang of Malacca? These I suspect would appear soon as they´re one of power seats of the Portuguese in Southeast Asia.
• Mardijker from Java? At least the free ones, not the slaves of the Dutch?
• Macanese from Macau? As they wore the intermediaries between the Portuguese and the Chinese, yes, I expect quite a few of them.
• Luso-Japonese and Kirishitan? They wore heavily involved in the trade between Japan and other Southeast Asian nations, so possible?

But yes, with that many groups, the primary language will be Portuguese, but it will adapt local words for things or lifeforms that the Portuguese didn’t know, and that new words will quickly expand into the rest of the empire.

I wonder what the words for kangaroo and eucalyptus would be, for example?

 

[Phalamus]

Goans and other Luso-Indians (due to a lack of a proper name) form India? These I expect would appear after the start of the gold rushes.

I imagine they would be present right from the beggining, as they formed a large part of Portuguese crews in Asia.

Burgher from Sri Lanka? Again, I expect would appear after the start of the gold rushes.

Depends on whether the colonization of Australia happens before or after the Dutch takeover (1658)

• Bayingyi of Burma? That depends of PoD and they are very inland in Burma…
• The Luso-Thai? They wore part of the military of the Thai King, possible?

Hmm... perhaps there would be a few, but both of these communities seem to have been very small in numbers and didn't seem to part in Portuguese trade routes a lot.

• Kristiang of Malacca? These I suspect would appear soon as they´re one of power seats of the Portuguese in Southeast Asia.
• Mardijker from Java? At least the free ones, not the slaves of the Dutch?

Both of these groups seem to have retained strong ties to Portuguese Asia even after the Dutch takeover of their cities, so yes, they would most likely be an important presence.

Macanese from Macau? As they wore the intermediaries between the Portuguese and the Chinese, yes, I expect quite a few of them.

Surely. Since they themselves were a mixed Portuguese-Cantonese-Tanka-Malay-Sinhalanese-Japanese group, adding them to the Australian melting pot pretty much guarantees the most creolized population in history.

Luso-Japonese and Kirishitan? They wore heavily involved in the trade between Japan and other Southeast Asian nations, so possible?

This is another case where it requires an early colonization (as the Portuguese were banned from Japan in 1638), but I believe some Japanese communities in Southeast Asia continued to exist until the end of the 17th century and did trade with the Portuguese.

But yes, with that many groups, the primary language will be Portuguese, but it will adapt local words for things or lifeforms that the Portuguese didn’t know, and that new words will quickly expand into the rest of the empire.

Most likely, though I suppose you could see something like the Macanese patois develop in australia. Or maybe the Noongar language could evolve into an Australian version of the Brazillian Língua Geral

In any of these cases, though, there would most likely be attempts by the colonial authorities to enforce standard Portuguese as the main language of communication.

I wonder what the words for kangaroo and eucalyptus would be, for example?

Well, kangaroo appears to come from an arboriginal language spoken in Queensland. Since Portuguese colonization will be focused on the west, I suppose they'll adapt the Noongar word (which appears to be Yongka according to a very quick google search) instead. So, something like Ionga or Ionca?

They could also take the word from one of the Northwestern Australian languages, but since the Southwestern settlement will be more prominent, I believe Noongar is more likely.

 

[Phalamus]

So, trying to revive this thread, since it's a very interesting discussion.

Although I believe it's fairly likely that the Portuguese colony would remain confined to Western Australia for a long time, as population grows, assuming no other European power steps in, there may be a chance for Eastwards expansions.

I believe the Queensland area is fit for sugarcane cultivation, right? Could the Portuguese maybe establish a few platations?

For Southeastern Australia, some parts seem to be very good for agriculture, but not really stuff that sells at high prices. But maybe after a southwestern gold rush there's an effort to find gold elsewhere?

Also, while this may be slightly tangential to the thread, if further exploration post colonization of Australia leads to a Portuguese discovery of New Zealand, is there any possibility of trade with the Maori?

 

[Nasei]

So, trying to revive this thread, since it's a very interesting discussion.

Although I believe it's fairly likely that the Portuguese colony would remain confined to Western Australia for a long time, as population grows, assuming no other European power steps in, there may be a chance for Eastwards expansions.

If no other European steps in, yes, the natural growth of the colony will extend to all of the island.

I believe the Queensland area is fit for sugarcane cultivation, right? Could the Portuguese maybe establish a few platations?

Because of it been near Timor I would expect to be explored and settled by Timorese with their tropical farming packet, but with maize and cassava that the Portuguese had introduced in Timor as their main food staple, the problem will be the poor soils and the extremely variability of the Australian climate.

After 1600 many people from Madeira start to move elsewhere due to the lack of opportunities in Madeira Island, so if a few sailors from Madeira arrive there they will recognize a good region to produce sugar, and they can get seeds and people with the knowledge to work in the sugarcane fields in India.

For Southeastern Australia, some parts seem to be very good for agriculture, but not really stuff that sells at high prices. But maybe after a southwestern gold rush there's an effort to find gold elsewhere?

In here I would expect that the whaling and sealing would be a cause to some outposts to appear.
Due to the local climate animals and plants from Europe will grow well; also, there is a lot of fish in those coasts.
But true settlement will be slow by natural growth of the outposts until the gold fever start.
Today there are some good wines in the region.
But again, the variability of the Australian climate could delay the growth of the settlements.

Also, while this may be slightly tangential to the thread, if further exploration post colonization of Australia leads to a Portuguese discovery of New Zealand, is there any possibility of trade with the Maori?

In New Zealand probably will be the whalers and the sealers who first explore that region.
And as any sailor on a new port they will trade for food, water and naval supplies (wood and cloth to make sails).
And they will quickly notice that the New Zealand flax is a lot better then what they use, so I expect that the first products acquired would be wood, flax and jade.
Jade at least the better varieties, wore very valued by the Chinese and the locals used a lot of jade artifacts.
And just Southeastern Australia European animals and plants will grow well there.
Gold is there but as I don´t know if the locals collect the fluvial deposits of gold can´t say much about it.

 

[Miguel Lanius]

Ins't there gold in Australia? Discovery of gold in Minas Gerais was one of the biggest propellers of new portuguese settlers to Portugal. Might something similar happen say, in the 19th century?

 

[Phalamus]

Ins't there gold in Australia? Discovery of gold in Minas Gerais was one of the biggest propellers of new portuguese settlers to Portugal. Might something similar happen say, in the 19th century?

Yes, definitely. As several people have discussed already discussed in this thread, a sandalwood harvesting colony in Western Australia would eventually lead to the discovery of the continent's gold reserves (probably around 100 years down the road)

 

[Aussie]

Many years ago I came across a book, “The Secret Discovery of Australia”, By Kenneth McIntyre, now long out of print, which posted that a Portuguese expedition “trespassed into Spanish Territory,“ and mapped the east coast of Australia, c.1521.

The nearest that I can find to the book, is this Wiki link: “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_Portuguese_discovery_of_Australia ”

The fabled “Mahogany Ship” mentioned up thread, is believed to have been part of this expedition.

 

[Phalamus]

A more recent threat about a Portuguese Australia has gotten me thinking about this again. It's always interesting to try to come up with new details regarding how such a colony would look.

Regarding architecture, in particular, one thing that has recently come to my attention is a distinct Sino-Portuguese style which is faily spread out through southeast asian trade centres.

Could this alternatively Australia end up looking like this? I think it's a very interesting aesthetic.

For a relatively similar thing, old town Macau is also gorgeous.

Another interesting area of speculation is cuisine, in which case I believe the Macanese tradition isa very interesting example to look at, since it blends Portuguese, Chinese and southeast Asian influences (the three main ones that would also be present in this colony)

But would there be adaptations to the Australian environment? Kangoroo and crocodile dishes?

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

I wonder what the language would be like

 

[Phalamus]

I wonder what the language would be like

Well, as I think we've discussed already in the thread, it would be either Portuguese, a creole language similar to Macanese Patois or a modified version of the Nyungar language analogous to the Brazilian Lingua Geral.

But most likely stardard Portuguese would be enforced by the colonial authorities, and so it would win out in the long run

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

Well, as I think we've discussed already in the thread, it would be either Portuguese, a creole language similar to Macanese Patois or a modified version of the Nyungar language analogous to the Brazilian Lingua Geral.

But most likely stardard Portuguese would be enforced by the colonial authorities, and so it would win out in the long run

So basically asian Brazil?

 

[Phalamus]

So basically asian Brazil?

In some ways. There are limits to that analogy as people of European descent would most likely form a smaller percentage of the population than in Brazil due to difficulties in sending large numbers of people to such a far away location, so the Southeast asian and Chinese components would be more prominent than the African component in Brazil (which, if I'm not mistaken is a little less than half white, a little less than half mixed and has only small percentages of "pure" Africans and natives).

It's hard to come up with good demographic predictions without a detailed timeline, but I'd wager there would be a large mixed majority and "pure" Chinese and southeast Asians would probably significantly outnumber "pure" Europeans and Africans.

So, if you really need an analogy, think of a cross between Brazil, Macau and East Timor, or something like that . In some aspects, I suppose it could also be seen as a Lusophone Philippines, although with the difference of being a settler colony.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

So, if you really need an analogy, think of a cross between Brazil, Macau and East Timor, or something like that . In some aspects, I suppose it could also be seen as a Lusophone Philippines, although with the difference of being a settler colony.

I think you should you make a time line