Rules/Cliches of AH
- Thread starter Gamingboy
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And I've never seen one where Julius Ceasar conqures and then after his assination Some signifcant fabricated nations sacks Gaul...Or how about one in prehistory...I haven't read a single one in prehistory (except for the geographically altered maps)...need one in which different tribes come to exsistance and dominace...
We simply don't know enough about prehistory to make any substantial guesses.Othniel said:
Anything is possible. We also know enough about what causes humans to move, community behaviors, Individual charrisma, and other factors (such as animal domestication) that could cause splits, unions, different migration paths, and stucture of goverments that may later come along.
Also different philosphies could come up, along with ecomnic dominations..
Also different philosphies could come up, along with ecomnic dominations..
Yeah, we could guess about the general idea. But try writing about this society. That has absolutely nothing to do with any society on earth, except that its people. If you can do that and make it sound plausible, I'll be impressed.Othniel said:
Just have to know all the major river vallies in the Old World, starting from Central Turkey and working outwards. If I study early history from before Egypts unification to the founding of Rome and attempt to trace such routes when people began migration, especially in the area of city-states vs. nomadic lifestyles, it may b very plausible to see different ethnicities take control of areas. The death of a child may very well cause a tribe to stay an extra day as so they become snowed in... thus creating a camp. They may then discover a viable (and constant) food source that makes staying even more pleasant.
But that so oversimplifies it all. Sure, you could suggest that any tribe could pretty much go anywhere. But we just don't know enough about prehistory to make any reasonable conjectures. Thats why its called prehistory.Othniel said:
Even Saurian timelines are alternate history because they have histories. Alternate pre-history is just that. You have good ideas btw Othniel.
Thats why AH is fiction, that's why a simple POD can change major parts of history. The power of one life, one event, can change evering sometimes gradually and unnoticablely and sometimes grandly and quickly. Just birth, death and what they do between the two...and then apply that to a large group. Even the immpossible can happen when everything for it to happen is there...even a plan named after an aquatic mammel being but in the hands of Bismarc (Then it might suceed.) As it happens prehistory gives us even more fun, there are nearly no limitations on it. You have unknown figures leading nomadic groups, some settling some not. Think of timeline where Certhage isn't founded, now think of one where the first major cities are founded in Beligium or Tazakastan. Think of one where the north is warmer so more people end up in Siberia when history arrives on the scene. Think of one where the tribes on the Savanna tamed Rhinos. Any thing is possible, just somethings are harder to make work or imagine.DominusNovus said:But that so oversimplifies it all. Sure, you could suggest that any tribe could pretty much go anywhere. But we just don't know enough about prehistory to make any reasonable conjectures. Thats why its called prehistory.
Sidenote:
My favorite is when the Inkas tamed tricertopes but could never leave continet cause their proud steeds sunk the boat.
(There is a way to make that plausible (lung size and breath intake)...it has to do with a biological change in making the dinosaurs able to breath easier because their nostrils are too small to intake the amount of air. That is one scienctific theroy...they suffocated cause they couldn't get enough oxegen...)
Well, not quite anything. Rhinos would be hard to tame. Major cities in Belgium would be unlikely w/o geographic and climactic changes.Othniel said:
Basically, if you were going to do a prehistoric POD, I'd seriously suggest reading Guns Germs and Steel, at least twice.
What if Oetzi got over the hill... ??
"We simply don't know enough about prehistory to make any substantial guesses."
When 'Oetzi the Ice Man' was first reported with that superb copper axe in his otherwise stone-age kit, my irreverent thought was '00x', the eponymous agent found dead by '007' in the opening scenes...
Whatever: there's more butterflies in play than mud bricks in an early pyramid.
"We simply don't know enough about prehistory to make any substantial guesses."
When 'Oetzi the Ice Man' was first reported with that superb copper axe in his otherwise stone-age kit, my irreverent thought was '00x', the eponymous agent found dead by '007' in the opening scenes...
Whatever: there's more butterflies in play than mud bricks in an early pyramid.
I reckon also scenarios where the Axis wins usually have the Allies being a bunch of bumbling incompetents compared to so-called Axis superiority in all areas
The reason I mentioned Rhinos was because of an article I read in 8th grade. It was about domestication, and how that helped the Europeans and Northern Asians became dominate because of the animals they domesticated. (Diease restitance, greater speeds, food stocks...etc.) Part of it mentioned Afircan warriors riding up on Rhinos...it made me laugh. I know its completely ASB because it involves changing the very nature of a creature, but still alls I asked was that you imagined it.DominusNovus said:
I also know that it would be difficult for a federation of tribes to exsist around the Belgium area without larger strips of surronding land from France, Germany and the Nietherlands.
That's not the point, the point is taking something hard, unlikely and then make it happen by predictable means. Not easy, I know...but to give such a task plausiblity would be an honor among AH writers. Even more so if you can extend it to our day and age. It would be funny to see someone try and just look at the maps, and at the modren day nations in that timeline. You wonder if the history buff would be the most confused.
DominusNovus said:
Zebras too. I second the suggestion to read GG and S. I'll get round to reading my copy eventually.
Well, if you're looking for some cliches of AH scenarios:
-If the Russian Revolution fails, a peaceful, prosperous, democratic Russian republic will appear.
-The Weimar Republic is doomed after about 1930. If there's no Hitler, there'll be a coup and some type of socialist/ultraconservative dictatorship.
-Stalin will usually quite happily destroy his country completely with purges.
-There will usually be a big European war sometime in the first half of the twentieth century.
-Nothing good ever happens to Mussolini. Ever.
-If the Russian Revolution fails, a peaceful, prosperous, democratic Russian republic will appear.
-The Weimar Republic is doomed after about 1930. If there's no Hitler, there'll be a coup and some type of socialist/ultraconservative dictatorship.
-Stalin will usually quite happily destroy his country completely with purges.
-There will usually be a big European war sometime in the first half of the twentieth century.
-Nothing good ever happens to Mussolini. Ever.
Othniel said:I also know that it would be difficult for a federation of tribes to exsist around the Belgium area without larger strips of surronding land from France, Germany and the Nietherlands.
That's not the point, the point is taking something hard, unlikely and then make it happen by predictable means. Not easy, I know...but to give such a task plausiblity would be an honor among AH writers. Even more so if you can extend it to our day and age. It would be funny to see someone try and just look at the maps, and at the modren day nations in that timeline. You wonder if the history buff would be the most confused.
Weren't the Belgae the dominant power in the area before Caesar ? I thought that his defeating them, but retreating from Britain allowed the Catuvellauni to occupy the position that they had held previously ?
Grey Wolf
Othniel said:I've just been confused...
Sorry, I came to the discussion late so I may have grasped the wrong stick
I thought it was being said that Belgium couldn't become a power on its own without basically borrowing its power from around it ?
But on the coast in Celtic times I was sure that the Belgae were the power, and quite a wide-reaching one, into Southern England etc
I thought that Caesar in defeating the Belgae obviously ended this, but in not occupying England he allowed the Catuvellauni from there to expand their influence in trade/politics into the arena previously dominated by the Belgae ?
Is this incorrect ? Its a long time since I last did much on this
Grey Wolf