Rule Britannia!
- Thread starter Anaxagoras
- Start date
- Status
How about "Westminster Prime," instead of "Westminster Prime Minister"?
I like where this is going, although things look to be far from settled. How will the Princely States make out in any Dominion plan for India?
Do the dominions no longer staff their own embassies, instead releating their foreign ministries to dealiings within the Empire, or does the confederatory nature leave enough "wiggle room" for independent diplomacy on some matters?
How did the U.S. take to the new "Imperial Parliament"?
I like where this is going, although things look to be far from settled. How will the Princely States make out in any Dominion plan for India?
Do the dominions no longer staff their own embassies, instead releating their foreign ministries to dealiings within the Empire, or does the confederatory nature leave enough "wiggle room" for independent diplomacy on some matters?
How did the U.S. take to the new "Imperial Parliament"?
Anaxagoras
Banned
George Carty said:
Yes. I forgot to include the Russian provisions in discussing the treaty which ended the war. The Russians got Galicia, but not any German territory. Truth be told, I muddled this whole area up, and I will have to work out the borders of Russia, Poland and Germany in a less confusing manner.
Anaxagoras
Banned
Constantinople said:
Indeed, the proportional representation factor is going to be one of the big stumbling blocks on the road to Indian self-rule, since if it was allowed for India it would mean that India could outvote the rest of the members put together, and by a considerable margin.
The solution will come from a somewhat unexpected quarter, however.
Anaxagoras
Banned
1938:
Japan continues to make substantial progress in China, whose central government remains weak and unable to coordinate effective resistance. By the middle of the year, most of northeastern China is under Japanese control, as is the entire Chinese coast.
The Imperial Parliament, in what is seen as its first major decision, orders that reinforcements be sent to the British garrison in Hong Kong with a brigade of Gurkhas and an Australian battalion. It is hoped that such a garrison could withstand a Japanese attack until the arrival of a relief force from Singapore.
Russia, while ignoring British suggestions that they coordinate their respective responses to the Sino-Japanese War, views the situation with concern. They strongly oppose further expansion of Japanese power in East Asia. As a result, they reinforce their army in Siberia and begin sending weapons and supplies to the Chinese.
Imperial Prime Minister Allsebrook and President Garner hold a conference in the Azores, the main subject being the continued Japanese aggression against China. Allsebrook is disappointed at the withdrawal of the American fleet from the Philippines, but Garner says the decision cannot be undone. Concern is expressed that Japanese annexation of large parts of China would allow them complete domination of East Asia, and measure are discussed to deal with the situation.
Allsebrook also must address the issue of Dominion status for India. The Indian National Congress and the Muslim League have become politically quite adept through the elected regional councils and all observers aside from some Nationalists in Britain are of the opinion that the political infrastructure is in place for complete self-rule.
However, the critical issue immediately becomes India’s representation in the Imperial Council. As seats are allocated proportionally by population, it immediately is obvious that India would completely dominate the political framework of the Empire, since her population alone is far larger than that of Britain and the Dominions put together. Also at issue is the status of the Princely States, which are not technically part of the British Raj but are independent states more or less bound to it by treaty.
Nehru convenes a all-party summit in Delhi, with representatives of the Imperial Council in attendance as well. Both the Indian National Congress and the Muslim League wanted a constitution that would limit the Indian franchise to the educated classes, as they feared the emergence of populist factions. Some wanted this simply out of a desire to hold power in a self-governing India, whereas others feared that India would tear itself apart without such a restriction. Others, however, demanded universal voting rights, while some attendees did not want India to have anything to do with the Imperial Council or the British Empire. The conference broke up in some disarray, without anything substantive having been decided.
Allsebrook responds by creating a special committee, with one representative each from Britain, each Dominion, the Indian National Congress and the Muslim League. To chair the committee, he chooses Lawrence Dundas, 2nd Marquess of Zetland. Some Liberals oppose this, as Dundas is a Conservative, but others view it as a wise decision considering his long experience with Indian affairs and the respect in which he is held by most Indian leaders. This becomes known as the Zetland Commission.
1939:
After Japan ignores a combined British-French-American communiqué calling for a withdrawal from China, the Three Parties (as they declare themselves in reference to Japan) announce two strong measures. They boycott the shipment of fuel oil to Japan and they begin sending weapons and supplies to the Chinese through Burma.
With Russian oil already cut off, Japan is faced with a severe crisis. America and the British-dominated Middle East had been their major oil suppliers. Without access to the oil under their control, the Japanese will be unable to prosecute their war against China. And with Russian and Allied supplies now reaching the Chinese, the resistance in China is increasing in effectiveness.
Some of the more vehement militarists in Japan think the answer lies in a naval offensive the south, so as to capture the oil-rich Dutch East Indies. This would also involve the destruction of the British-French fleet in the area and possibly a later battle with the Americans. Many in Japan relish this possibility, but the more sensible members of the government think it is madness. The idea that Japan could win a war against the combined might of the British Empire, France and the United States, with Russia possibly joining in as well, is considered absurd.
The Zetland Commission continues the long, laborious process of deciding how to raise India to the level of a self-governing Dominion. Suggestions that India accept a higher ratio for its population in determining proportional representation (the suggested formula being 75 Indians for one Briton) are dismissed by Indian representatives as implying that Indians are lesser creatures than Britons. Instead, strict proportional representation will have to be dumped altogether, and each Dominion allocated a certain number of representatives based upon their “overall influence in Imperial institutions,” a phrase which can obviously mean whatever the Imperial Council wants it to mean. Discussions continue.
1940:
Military planners in Japan conclude that they cannot hope to win a war in the present situation. The combined Pacific Fleets of the British, French and Americans are roughly equal to the Japanese fleet, and reinforcements would be dispatched from Europe and America at the outbreak of hostilities. Furthermore, Japan is diplomatically isolated, with Russia threatening it from the north and no allies willing to support Japan.
Japan knows it cannot prosecute the war in China without access to proper oil supplies, which have progressively been cut off. It seeks to end its diplomatic isolation by approaching Russia with a proposal for dividing China between them: Japan would get Manchuria and eastern China, while Russia would get western China. The Japanese point out that this would allow them to threaten British India in the event of a conflict between the two powers. After some consideration, Russia rejects this offer, as their interests in China are mostly focused on Manchuria.
In the summer, Japanese forces reluctantly go on the defensive in China, unable to maintain major offensive operations without sufficient fuel supplies.
The Zetland Commission issues its final report, calling for India to be raised to the level of a separate Dominion within the Empire and be governed by a Westminster-style parliamentary system. The Imperial Council itself shall be reformed, with each Dominion having a certain proportion of members. For every 10 members Britain itself has, India shall have five. Canada shall have four, South Africa and Australia shall have three, and New Zealand two. On the important committees, the Imperial Defense Committee and the Imperial Trade Committee, each Dominion shall have a single seat.
The debate over the Zetland Report grips the Imperial Council for many weeks and becomes a major topic of conversation throughout the Empire. In the end, though, it is accepted by a wide margin. Elections to the Indian Parliament (which is to be called the “Lok Sabha” of “House of the People”) are scheduled for the following year, and King Edward VIII is preparing to make an extensive tour of India to celebrate the achievement of Dominion status and open the first session of the Lok Sabha.
Skirmishes along the Turkish-Armenian border continue.
In U.S. Presidential elections, Republican Charles McNary, formerly the Majority Leader of the Senate, defeats President Garner, who had attracted substantial opposition for breaking the tradition against seeking a third term. Republicans now control the White House and the Senate, but Democrats control the House. In both parties, generally moderate views prevail.
Japan continues to make substantial progress in China, whose central government remains weak and unable to coordinate effective resistance. By the middle of the year, most of northeastern China is under Japanese control, as is the entire Chinese coast.
The Imperial Parliament, in what is seen as its first major decision, orders that reinforcements be sent to the British garrison in Hong Kong with a brigade of Gurkhas and an Australian battalion. It is hoped that such a garrison could withstand a Japanese attack until the arrival of a relief force from Singapore.
Russia, while ignoring British suggestions that they coordinate their respective responses to the Sino-Japanese War, views the situation with concern. They strongly oppose further expansion of Japanese power in East Asia. As a result, they reinforce their army in Siberia and begin sending weapons and supplies to the Chinese.
Imperial Prime Minister Allsebrook and President Garner hold a conference in the Azores, the main subject being the continued Japanese aggression against China. Allsebrook is disappointed at the withdrawal of the American fleet from the Philippines, but Garner says the decision cannot be undone. Concern is expressed that Japanese annexation of large parts of China would allow them complete domination of East Asia, and measure are discussed to deal with the situation.
Allsebrook also must address the issue of Dominion status for India. The Indian National Congress and the Muslim League have become politically quite adept through the elected regional councils and all observers aside from some Nationalists in Britain are of the opinion that the political infrastructure is in place for complete self-rule.
However, the critical issue immediately becomes India’s representation in the Imperial Council. As seats are allocated proportionally by population, it immediately is obvious that India would completely dominate the political framework of the Empire, since her population alone is far larger than that of Britain and the Dominions put together. Also at issue is the status of the Princely States, which are not technically part of the British Raj but are independent states more or less bound to it by treaty.
Nehru convenes a all-party summit in Delhi, with representatives of the Imperial Council in attendance as well. Both the Indian National Congress and the Muslim League wanted a constitution that would limit the Indian franchise to the educated classes, as they feared the emergence of populist factions. Some wanted this simply out of a desire to hold power in a self-governing India, whereas others feared that India would tear itself apart without such a restriction. Others, however, demanded universal voting rights, while some attendees did not want India to have anything to do with the Imperial Council or the British Empire. The conference broke up in some disarray, without anything substantive having been decided.
Allsebrook responds by creating a special committee, with one representative each from Britain, each Dominion, the Indian National Congress and the Muslim League. To chair the committee, he chooses Lawrence Dundas, 2nd Marquess of Zetland. Some Liberals oppose this, as Dundas is a Conservative, but others view it as a wise decision considering his long experience with Indian affairs and the respect in which he is held by most Indian leaders. This becomes known as the Zetland Commission.
1939:
After Japan ignores a combined British-French-American communiqué calling for a withdrawal from China, the Three Parties (as they declare themselves in reference to Japan) announce two strong measures. They boycott the shipment of fuel oil to Japan and they begin sending weapons and supplies to the Chinese through Burma.
With Russian oil already cut off, Japan is faced with a severe crisis. America and the British-dominated Middle East had been their major oil suppliers. Without access to the oil under their control, the Japanese will be unable to prosecute their war against China. And with Russian and Allied supplies now reaching the Chinese, the resistance in China is increasing in effectiveness.
Some of the more vehement militarists in Japan think the answer lies in a naval offensive the south, so as to capture the oil-rich Dutch East Indies. This would also involve the destruction of the British-French fleet in the area and possibly a later battle with the Americans. Many in Japan relish this possibility, but the more sensible members of the government think it is madness. The idea that Japan could win a war against the combined might of the British Empire, France and the United States, with Russia possibly joining in as well, is considered absurd.
The Zetland Commission continues the long, laborious process of deciding how to raise India to the level of a self-governing Dominion. Suggestions that India accept a higher ratio for its population in determining proportional representation (the suggested formula being 75 Indians for one Briton) are dismissed by Indian representatives as implying that Indians are lesser creatures than Britons. Instead, strict proportional representation will have to be dumped altogether, and each Dominion allocated a certain number of representatives based upon their “overall influence in Imperial institutions,” a phrase which can obviously mean whatever the Imperial Council wants it to mean. Discussions continue.
1940:
Military planners in Japan conclude that they cannot hope to win a war in the present situation. The combined Pacific Fleets of the British, French and Americans are roughly equal to the Japanese fleet, and reinforcements would be dispatched from Europe and America at the outbreak of hostilities. Furthermore, Japan is diplomatically isolated, with Russia threatening it from the north and no allies willing to support Japan.
Japan knows it cannot prosecute the war in China without access to proper oil supplies, which have progressively been cut off. It seeks to end its diplomatic isolation by approaching Russia with a proposal for dividing China between them: Japan would get Manchuria and eastern China, while Russia would get western China. The Japanese point out that this would allow them to threaten British India in the event of a conflict between the two powers. After some consideration, Russia rejects this offer, as their interests in China are mostly focused on Manchuria.
In the summer, Japanese forces reluctantly go on the defensive in China, unable to maintain major offensive operations without sufficient fuel supplies.
The Zetland Commission issues its final report, calling for India to be raised to the level of a separate Dominion within the Empire and be governed by a Westminster-style parliamentary system. The Imperial Council itself shall be reformed, with each Dominion having a certain proportion of members. For every 10 members Britain itself has, India shall have five. Canada shall have four, South Africa and Australia shall have three, and New Zealand two. On the important committees, the Imperial Defense Committee and the Imperial Trade Committee, each Dominion shall have a single seat.
The debate over the Zetland Report grips the Imperial Council for many weeks and becomes a major topic of conversation throughout the Empire. In the end, though, it is accepted by a wide margin. Elections to the Indian Parliament (which is to be called the “Lok Sabha” of “House of the People”) are scheduled for the following year, and King Edward VIII is preparing to make an extensive tour of India to celebrate the achievement of Dominion status and open the first session of the Lok Sabha.
Skirmishes along the Turkish-Armenian border continue.
In U.S. Presidential elections, Republican Charles McNary, formerly the Majority Leader of the Senate, defeats President Garner, who had attracted substantial opposition for breaking the tradition against seeking a third term. Republicans now control the White House and the Senate, but Democrats control the House. In both parties, generally moderate views prevail.
B'mmp- Just found this thread and read it in last 20 mins.
Very, very good
Got a couple of questions from previous installments:
Is there a Washington Naval Treaty? if not the British can build more Hood Class and Super Hood's. I think there was something called the G3's too.
Many in the Admiralty were actually convinced that airpower woule rule the day, so we could see more fleet carriers laid down by the late 30's.
especially with the problems with Japan
Is there a Great Depression?
If there is a continued migration of Jews from Russia/Eastern Europe. maybe many more would move to UK. Could also see other people move to UK too
Any idea what Britain is like at this point in TTL
Once again this is great TL
Very, very good
Got a couple of questions from previous installments:
Is there a Washington Naval Treaty? if not the British can build more Hood Class and Super Hood's. I think there was something called the G3's too.
Many in the Admiralty were actually convinced that airpower woule rule the day, so we could see more fleet carriers laid down by the late 30's.
especially with the problems with Japan
Is there a Great Depression?
If there is a continued migration of Jews from Russia/Eastern Europe. maybe many more would move to UK. Could also see other people move to UK too
Any idea what Britain is like at this point in TTL
Once again this is great TL
Anaxagoras
Banned
birdie said:
No, there's no Washington Naval Treaty. IOTL, the political climate only existed for such a treaty because of the rise of pacifist sentiment in Britain, which itself resulted from the horrible experience of the Great War. ITTL, Britain emerged from the Great War without having suffered nearly so much loss in life and treasure. Instead of the pessimistic and pacifist attitude of post-war Britain IOTL, Britain ITTL is still a confident, assertive nation. Any idea of an agreement with other nations to limit the size of the Royal Navy would cause the government to collapse.
birde said:
There was some economic dislocation in the 1930s, which I think was inevitable and which I included in the timeline (the main consequence being the Democratic return to power in the United States). But it was not nearly as bad as IOTL.
birde said:If there is a continued migration of Jews from Russia/Eastern Europe. maybe many more would move to UK. Could also see other people move to UK too
ITTL, the Russian Empire has not collapsed, and is becoming more right-wing rather than left-wing. There is increasing anti-Semitism in Russia, so many Jews are leaving. But rather than go to Britain, most who live are going to Germany and newly-independent Poland.
birde said:
In general, the attitude of the people is like that of the late Victorians, or rather like that of 1990s America. They have won the Great War without suffering too badly (no "Somme mentality"), they remain the world's strongest power, they feel that their empire is a force for good in the world, and while they know there are many problems they are confident in their ability to solve them. Economic times are good, political radicalism is rather muted and social problems are present but not all that bad.
Anaxagoras
Banned
1941:
Fierce political infighting break out within the Japanese government when it is revealed that the Japanese leadership plans to approach the British and asking them to mediate the Chinese conflict. The general idea being that they shall agree to withdraw from all China except Manchuria, which shall be a puppet state under Japanese control until such time as it can be incorporated into Japan itself, just as Korea had been in 1910.
The militant faction bitterly opposes this, wishing for a war against the Westerners even though it could prove disastrous to Japan. The moderates believe that such a war can only have one outcome and believe such a course would lead to Japan’s downfall. While all branches of the armed forces contain members of both factions, the navy is largely militant.
In China, the consolidation of the power of the Chinese government, combined with the training and supplies received from Russia and the Western powers, results in several tactical setbacks for the Japanese. China is able to reoccupy much territory, but Japan remains in control of much of northeastern China.
King Edward VIII commences his tour of the Indian Raj as elections are held for the Lok Sabha. Contrary to the predictions of many, he is received enthusiastically by the people and the tour is regarded as a great success. Many Indian politicians are upset by this, but others see the popular support for the British monarch as a means to win support during the election drive and scramble to make public appearances with him.
Elections are held in June. As expected, most seats are won by the Congress Party, with the Muslim League as the second largest bloc. A number of smaller and regional parties also win a considerable number of seats. Although it has enough seats to govern on its own, Congress elects to form a coalition with the Muslim League to govern, hoping to avoid sectarian tension. Nehru becomes Prime Minister, with Muhammed Al Jinnah as Deputy Prime Minister.
A series of bomb attacks in Johannesburg is blamed on a radical Afrikaner terrorist group, which declares its intention of removing South Africa from the British Empire and imposing strict Afrikaner rule under the guidelines of white superiority. These attacks, which kill about a dozen people, are immediately denounced by all major Afrikaner politicians.
1942:
Members of the Japanese militant faction stage a coup attempt in Tokyo, attempting to overthrow the government before it approaches Britain with a mediation request. After several confused hours, in which several people are killed, the coup attempt is put down. The Emperor addresses the Japanese people by radio, telling them what had happened. He ends the address by saying that the government will approach the British for help in negotiating an end to the Chinese conflict.
Japan, having not been defeated on the battlefield by the Chinese and retaining very strong naval power, is able to negotiate from a period of considerable strength. It get most of what it wants. Manchuria is set up as a Japanese puppet state, and Japan continues to hold Tsingtao. Elsewhere, the Republic of China under Wang Jingwei will take control, and the Japanese also gain important trade concessions.
Under the threat of Britain intervening directly on the side of the Chinese, Japan sees these terms as quite good and accepts them. As part of the treaty ending the Sino-Japanese War, Britain quietly gains permanent control over the New Territories, the portion of Hong Kong on the Chinese mainland.
In Britain, some left-leaning elements criticize the deal as giving too much to the Japanese, but in general British public opinion is very pleased with itself for having done such a service to the world. Other nations rather resent the demonstration of the British ability to dictate peace terms to nations on the other side of the world, but most are happy that a larger war against Japan has been avoided.
MacDonald and Allsebrook go into the election season confident of victory, riding the wave of satisfaction. Liberals again win a solid majority, winning 55%. The major shift in both the Westminster Parliament and the Imperial Parliament is that the Tories win back numerous seats from the Nationalists.
Churchill makes the decision not to run for his old Westminster and is instead elected to the Imperial Parliament, becoming the leader of the Conservative opposition there. He forms an opposition coalition from Conservative party members from the Dominions, although no Indian party will join Churchill’s group.
Fierce political infighting break out within the Japanese government when it is revealed that the Japanese leadership plans to approach the British and asking them to mediate the Chinese conflict. The general idea being that they shall agree to withdraw from all China except Manchuria, which shall be a puppet state under Japanese control until such time as it can be incorporated into Japan itself, just as Korea had been in 1910.
The militant faction bitterly opposes this, wishing for a war against the Westerners even though it could prove disastrous to Japan. The moderates believe that such a war can only have one outcome and believe such a course would lead to Japan’s downfall. While all branches of the armed forces contain members of both factions, the navy is largely militant.
In China, the consolidation of the power of the Chinese government, combined with the training and supplies received from Russia and the Western powers, results in several tactical setbacks for the Japanese. China is able to reoccupy much territory, but Japan remains in control of much of northeastern China.
King Edward VIII commences his tour of the Indian Raj as elections are held for the Lok Sabha. Contrary to the predictions of many, he is received enthusiastically by the people and the tour is regarded as a great success. Many Indian politicians are upset by this, but others see the popular support for the British monarch as a means to win support during the election drive and scramble to make public appearances with him.
Elections are held in June. As expected, most seats are won by the Congress Party, with the Muslim League as the second largest bloc. A number of smaller and regional parties also win a considerable number of seats. Although it has enough seats to govern on its own, Congress elects to form a coalition with the Muslim League to govern, hoping to avoid sectarian tension. Nehru becomes Prime Minister, with Muhammed Al Jinnah as Deputy Prime Minister.
A series of bomb attacks in Johannesburg is blamed on a radical Afrikaner terrorist group, which declares its intention of removing South Africa from the British Empire and imposing strict Afrikaner rule under the guidelines of white superiority. These attacks, which kill about a dozen people, are immediately denounced by all major Afrikaner politicians.
1942:
Members of the Japanese militant faction stage a coup attempt in Tokyo, attempting to overthrow the government before it approaches Britain with a mediation request. After several confused hours, in which several people are killed, the coup attempt is put down. The Emperor addresses the Japanese people by radio, telling them what had happened. He ends the address by saying that the government will approach the British for help in negotiating an end to the Chinese conflict.
Japan, having not been defeated on the battlefield by the Chinese and retaining very strong naval power, is able to negotiate from a period of considerable strength. It get most of what it wants. Manchuria is set up as a Japanese puppet state, and Japan continues to hold Tsingtao. Elsewhere, the Republic of China under Wang Jingwei will take control, and the Japanese also gain important trade concessions.
Under the threat of Britain intervening directly on the side of the Chinese, Japan sees these terms as quite good and accepts them. As part of the treaty ending the Sino-Japanese War, Britain quietly gains permanent control over the New Territories, the portion of Hong Kong on the Chinese mainland.
In Britain, some left-leaning elements criticize the deal as giving too much to the Japanese, but in general British public opinion is very pleased with itself for having done such a service to the world. Other nations rather resent the demonstration of the British ability to dictate peace terms to nations on the other side of the world, but most are happy that a larger war against Japan has been avoided.
MacDonald and Allsebrook go into the election season confident of victory, riding the wave of satisfaction. Liberals again win a solid majority, winning 55%. The major shift in both the Westminster Parliament and the Imperial Parliament is that the Tories win back numerous seats from the Nationalists.
Churchill makes the decision not to run for his old Westminster and is instead elected to the Imperial Parliament, becoming the leader of the Conservative opposition there. He forms an opposition coalition from Conservative party members from the Dominions, although no Indian party will join Churchill’s group.
Constantinople
Banned
Well hopefully Churchill becomes Imperial PM.
As a matter of fact, Im a little confused, how much power does the Imperial Parliment have over everything? Will it eventully overtake the regional parliments as most powerfuL? Or is that the plan at least?...
How is Africa going to be represented?
Oh so many questions...
I think a good plan is to modernise india and other large diminions and in the long run drastically keep their populations smaller.
As a matter of fact, Im a little confused, how much power does the Imperial Parliment have over everything? Will it eventully overtake the regional parliments as most powerfuL? Or is that the plan at least?...
How is Africa going to be represented?
Oh so many questions...
I think a good plan is to modernise india and other large diminions and in the long run drastically keep their populations smaller.
- Status