Rule Bavaria: An Alternate War of the Austrian Succession

Susano

Banned
True, but in OTL the Bavarians took Bohemia (Charles V styled himself first Archduke of Austria, but when they switch to attacking Bohemia instead -POD is that they attack Vienna- he's instead Archduke/King/whatever of Bohemia.) And no one really stopped him except the Austrians. So... I really dont think Bohemia goes off on it's own. Besides, the name is 'Rule Bavaria', so we'll have to devise a way for Charles V to keep it! ;)

En contraire, with that name youll have tolet it go. Hecaue the proper title of the ruler of Bohemia is "KING of Bohemia". Which is a tad senior to "Duke in Bavaria". Hence, with the conquets of Bohemia, the Wittelsbach realm will become the Kingdom of Bohemia, and hence it will be Rule Bohemia ;)
 
En contraire, with that name youll have tolet it go. Hecaue the proper title of the ruler of Bohemia is "KING of Bohemia". Which is a tad senior to "Duke in Bavaria". Hence, with the conquets of Bohemia, the Wittelsbach realm will become the Kingdom of Bohemia, and hence it will be Rule Bohemia ;)

That didn't stop the Archduchy of Austria feeling quite superior to Bohemia IOTL, did it now?
 

Susano

Banned
That didn't stop the Archduchy of Austria feeling quite superior to Bohemia IOTL, did it now?

Well, yesss, but only because they also had (de facto per default) the Imperial Title. So the King of bohemia and Archduke of Austria couldjust be adressed as "The Emperor". But without thatr title it woul dbe a little awkward to adress somebdoy who has a royal title with a noble title...
 
Well, yesss, but only because they also had (de facto per default) the Imperial Title. So the King of bohemia and Archduke of Austria couldjust be adressed as "The Emperor". But without thatr title it woul dbe a little awkward to adress somebdoy who has a royal title with a noble title...

But they referred to themselves as Archdukes of Austria mostly, ergo classing imperials as mere nobles. It's plain that Austria was quite proud of its place / shockingly egotistic, and that's something that Bavaria could copy, given the impetus (for example, winning a war...)
 

Susano

Banned
But they referred to themselves as Archdukes of Austria mostly, ergo classing imperials as mere nobles.
Yes, Habsburg family members did. However, only because Austria was their heriditary lands. This was nothing specifically Habsburg: Hohenzollern family members were called Margraves of Brandenburg, for example.

So, the situation would most likely be that the reigning Wittelsbach is called King of Bohemia, and the non-reigning ones Dukes in Bavaria.
 
Yes, Habsburg family members did. However, only because Austria was their heriditary lands. This was nothing specifically Habsburg: Hohenzollern family members were called Margraves of Brandenburg, for example.

So, the situation would most likely be that the reigning Wittelsbach is called King of Bohemia, and the non-reigning ones Dukes in Bavaria.

I'm sorry, I'm a bit distracted at the moment. Can you explain exactly how the situation would be so different between Wittlesbachs and Habsburgs, given that Bavaria is the W-bach hereditary land? :confused:
 

Susano

Banned
I'm sorry, I'm a bit distracted at the moment. Can you explain exactly how the situation would be so different between Wittlesbachs and Habsburgs, given that Bavaria is the W-bach hereditary land? :confused:

The difference is that the Austrians had a higher title (the Imperial One) to subsume all their other titles. Of course, their domains were collectively called Austria, yes, but that is because they could ignore the differences in standing between a Duchy and a Kingdom - because the ruling Habsburg had that higher title that put those two titles on second line anyways. At least, thats my understanding...
 
Aaaargh! He styled himself KING of Bohemia! Therefore, large chunk of Bohemia is now Bavaria!
*facepalm*
Theresa, the only one not buying it is you, pretty much. The Bavarians-French go for Viennba, it falls, Theresa's pleas to the the Hungarians fails as a result, Khevenhuller dies, and Austria is crushed and carved up. Bavarians are happy (they tripled in size), Charles VII is Emperor, and etc. Rule Bavaria is the timeline's name, it should have been obvious what happens before you click on it. ;)
Oh, and that French Succession smell is good, Nekromans! :D;) Though, by the 19th Century this timeline's motto will effectively be 'Wars of Succession that Bavaria explots".
Still, very interesting.
 
I have an idea - if you give Prussia Prague (and connecting territories, of course) then it could claim the Kingdom of Bohemia, and you could have your big Bohemia and Susano would be happy and the world would be full of bunnies and children dancing with flowers, world peace, etc.
 
Are not the kdm of Bohemia and AD of Austria intrinsically linked at this point unless separated by treaty they come as a set by this point in time.

If Charles captures Vienna he is not likely to give up either title. If he is Elected Emporer he will also include that title. It is not whether this is an Austrian or Bavarian Empire. It would be a Wittelsbach Empire in the same manner that it was a Habsburg Empire. There was no Empire of Austria until the Napoleonic Wars. The kdm of Hungary was held separately and distinct from the Hapsburg holdings in the HRE. It was personal union.

Charles would be thus HRE first, King of Bohemia ( as it is within the HRE), then Dukes of Bavaria and Austria ( or GD or AD if you like ) as perhaps Bavaria would be combined directly with Austria (Would they move the capital to Linz perhaps).

On another point, MT did not trade away Silesia for the A. Neth. it was lost militarily to Frederick and could only have been regained by prolonging the War and there is no certainty that that end would be obtained.
She retained the A.Neth at the insistence of the Dutch and British ( who were loath to have it go to France. Her own preference would have been to retain Silesia and let the French ( or someone else for that matter i suppose) have the A. Neth. Frederick would of course not give it up as that was the whole point in the first place as far as he was concerned. I can't remember what the French got out of this for withdrawing, but I think it was return of of their overseas possessions that had been taken by the Brits.

So the question comes, if Vienna falls will the French still be in a position to take the A.Neth or will hostilities end before they have progressed that far.

The Br. and Dutch will for the same reason's as OTL still be loath to have the French take it So it is likely to go to MT as a consolation if the Hungarian Nobility do not in the end rally to her cause. Though in truth, while they do not initially rally there is no reason they should not later on, as it avoids infighting among their own for the priviledge of occupying that seat.

If MT does not get A. Neth at the insistence of the Du/Br as a buffer to the French (and lets face it her husband is Duke of Lorraine right). Then the Br/Du will probably prefer it go to one of them ( or anyone else for that matter, their has got to be cadet branch of some ruling house somewhere that would be acceptable) whether they can make it stick is another matter. Personally I think the logical thing is for it to go to her.

As to Hungary, Salic law doesn't strictly apply does it There has been a suggestion that it was hereditary in the Hapsburg male line. Even then, wouldnt. Agnatic succession still apply, In which case MT is still the nearest Female to the last reigning male monarch or the realm. So even if they did not at first rally they might elect her and her heirs subsequent to this. Having Frederick take Silesia is probably going to make most loath to having the Hohenzollerns gain Hungary as well even in a Cadet line ( of course if they were a Catholic branch, that would change things significantly...does the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen line exist at this point?) From the Hungarian point of view, there primary opponents would still be the Ottomans so they would want someone with ties that would be able to help them on that front. They would also need to be Catholic or convert I would suspect (a cadet Bourbon branch, because of their Ottoman ties would not be good bet. A Spanish or Italian line are probably the best bet, mind you that would bring back a Bourbon again right)
 
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peace concluded in 1743

If based on the Op we are to presume that Charles and his Fr and Saxon allies and Frederick defeat the Hapsburgs in Austria and Bohemia then the War will essentilly be finished at the conclusion of the first phase of the War. the ancestral terr in the East are lost, there is no support in Hungary. the only area held is the A. Neth by her Anglo/Du allies I think, but the prospect of regaining her possessions from there is not going to be a good prospect for her and the Allies can hardly operate beyond it to help her. thus they will move to a peace conference at this point. Frederick will have gained his objectives, so will Charles. They will heartyly sign on..Saxony probably will be short changed greatly and have even more reason to oppose the Prussians/Wittelsbachs in future. That only leaves the French. With the Hapsburg power broken in Germany and its allies ascendant, even if there are no direct gains by France this will probably still be considered a victory by the French if they get any losses back from the Brits for acquiecing to the retension of A. Neth by MT. It also avoids any further needless bloodshed that they will no doubt have to endure on their own. None of the others will have any reason to restart the campaign against the Habsburgs as long as MT agrees to surrender her rights there to Frederick and Charles and whoever is elected by the Hungarians.

Nominate Joseph Franz Ernst of Hohenzollern - Sigmaringen ( he's 41 in 1743 ) and recombine the Sigmaringen with Hechingen principalities once again into a single Hohenzollern Principality...under the senior Hechingen line.
 
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Joseph II is Maria-Josephe instead/heirs.

and you might actually be able to pull this off.

Personally I am still trying to figure out how Charles VII is able to make his claims in rejecting the Pragmatic sanction. He is married afterall to Joseph's younger daughter not the elder. The elder is married to Frederick Augustus. Under Quasi-Salic Agnatic succession FA The best claim would be Frederick Christian of Saxony followed by Maximilian III. Charles would act only as regent. I take it the plan was to divide the inheritance between them? I suppose then it would have been logical for the Saxon heir to gain Hungary given F-A is currently King of P-L, Which would explain the Russian opposition. F-C would be a shoo in for the P-L succession then too. Now that would be War waitng to happen..call it the Second War of Polish succession. I think the problem with who the Hungarians would pick as King is now solved, given the historic ties between Hungary and Poland.

Maria Theresa is still the most legitimate claimant under Semi-Salic Agnatic succession and with the birth of her son in '41 she is the best claimant under
Quasi-Salic (closest female to the last male reigning having a male heir)

As to the Hapsburg Succession pact, that was in response to the W of SS and became a dead letter requiring clarification with the Hapsburg loss and the death of Joseph I and Charles ascension in to the remaining Hapsburg domains. With Three females as the only heirs..the logical course would have been to divide it three ways to avoid any disagreements, allowing the Hungarians and Bohemians to elect theoretically should have offered this opportunity (on the surface anyways), while preserving the core terr. of Austria and the A. Neth. for his own daughter. However, it did leave the possibility she would get the whole inheritance.

As to heirs of the new Wittelsbach empire. There is a reason that Maximilian III and Maria Anna Sophia did not have any children given their rather long marriage without any attempt at annulment. Ditto for the Sulzbach line as well ...20 yrs of marriage before the first child ...that lasted all of a day. At least there is the opportunity for divorce, or they keep trying and Elizabeth Auguste dies in child birth allowing him to remarry or you allow it to simply fall to the Zweibrucken line. In the case of the Sulzbach line...there already married by the time of this war so you cannot change that much. Maximilian III is unmarried so he can simply marry someone else if you like if you get the war business over soon enough with Charles/Maximilian in a more commanding position.

Suggest he marry Maria-Therese of Spain ( married the Dauphin Otl and died shortly after) considering the alliance structure Maria Anna Sophia is still his most logical choice but at least you have some room to manouver, he is still marrying the daughter of one of his allies. The Dauphin marries Mary of Spain instead. Let Victor Amadaeus then marry Maria Anna Sophia ( assuming she is the cause of no children then Sardinia will revert to the Carignano line a generation early, minimal butterflies there). You can then let Maria-Therese die as per OTL, I am not sure why she did. If you go with minimal initial changes then he can take Maria-Josephe of Saxony as his second wife ( the Dauphin's second wife). Provided Maximilian is not the biological reason for no children you should have secure lines of succession for the Wittelsbachs and the French Bourbons. Just the lineup will be completely altered. Of course if he is then your stuck with the Sulzbach line and all that that entails.

Does anyone know what the cause is. for the Wittelsbach problems?
 
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