Rudolf, the Crown Prince of Austria

Hello, all!

I'm sorry if I am doing this wrong. I have never read alternate history (or even heard of it) until I met my boyfriend (user: Hnau), so I am not sure how this all works or what the rules are. I am mostly interested in individual people in history and how they effected their era, especially European royalty. In any case, I wanted to make a post about Princess Sissi of Austria, since I think she's fascinating. Instead, I decided to post about her son, the Crown Prince of Austria, Rudolf.

ACTUAL HISTORY:

In a nutshell, Rudolf was the crown prince of Austria and the only son of Empress Elisabeth and her husband, Emperor Franz Joseph I. He was married in 1881 at age 22 and had a child, but the marriage was strained. Therefore, he began having many affairs throughout their marriage. In 1887, Rudolf bought the Mayerling Hunting Lodge. In 1888, he met the 17 year old Baroness Marie Vetsera and began an affair with her. In an 1889 event now called the Mayerling Incident, Rudolf killed Marie and then himself. There are many theories as to why he did this (a murder-suicide spurred by a quarrel with his father over his affair, varying political plots), but the exact cause is unknown because much of the evidence gathered at the time was destroyed for fear of a political scandal.

As a result, Emperor Franz Joseph's brother, Karl Ludwig, became the next heir, but Karl Ludwig renounced his succession rights in favor of his eldest son, Franz Ferdinand.

ALTERNATE HISTORY

I'm working under the assumption that the murder-suicide was not a political plot, but it was committed because of the relationship between Rudolf and Marie, whether for issues between themselves or issues between Rudolf and his family.

What if Rudolf never met Marie Vetsera? He had had many affairs before, and none of them had taken such a terrible hold on him as this one. None of them had had such negative impacts on him or his family besides social embarrassment. Had Rudolf never met Marie, he never would have killed himself. Had he never died, he would have been the next in line, not Franz Ferdinand. Thus Franz Ferdinand would have been a less valuable target in the plot that actually took his life in 1914, and he perhaps would not have died at all, stalling (but not preventing) World War I. Additionally, the house of Habsburg would still exist today as a royal house because when Emperor Franz Joseph died in 1916, his throne would have gone on to Rudolf instead of Franz Joseph's grandnephew Charles, who abdicated in 1918, ending the Habsburgs.

Thoughts?

Sorry if this isn't the usual alternate history. I don't know how this all works.
 

Hnau

Banned
This is a cool first thread, Goorat. I've never heard of the Mayerling Incident, but I looked up the basics. What a fascinating murder mystery!

From what it looks like, without the Mayerling Incident, Sisi's depression would have been much less severe, so she may not have traveled as often. This means she may not have been stabbed by an anarchist in 1898 while visiting Geneva. If she lived longer and had been less distant, would Sisi have been more hostile to Franz Joseph's mistress, Katharina Schratt?

How would Franz Joseph have acted differently with such different family life? It seems like he was constantly fighting Rudolf's liberalism, but Franz Joseph might have acted more liberally if his son had kept fighting with him for more years and as he grew older. Franz Joseph may have then been less conservative in his later years.

Also, if Franz Ferdinand is not in the line of succession, maybe the Serbians would then target Rudolf for assassination. The Great War may still be an inevitability, if they succeed at around the same time under the same conditions. The only difference is that Franz Ferdinand would then still be alive, and would take over after Franz Joseph's death in 1916.

Franz Ferdinand and Prince Rudolf may have been able to work with each other in this world, as they were both considered liberals and reformists. If Rudolf could involve himself in government, Ferdinand could use his help to push progress on a few items, such as autonomy for ethnic minorities and a stronger central government. They'd piss off the Hungarians to no end... possibly causing the Hungarians to send assassins, not the Serbians.

EDIT: I liked this paper on Prince Rudolf's life. It reveals quite a bit about his personality and political views.
 
Last edited:
This is a cool first thread, Goorat. I've never heard of the Mayerling Incident, but I looked up the basics. What a fascinating murder mystery!

From what it looks like, without the Mayerling Incident, Sisi's depression would have been much less severe, so she may not have traveled as often. This means she may not have been stabbed by an anarchist in 1898 while visiting Geneva. If she lived longer and had been less distant, would Sisi have been more hostile to Franz Joseph's mistress, Katharina Schratt?

How would Franz Joseph have acted differently with such different family life? It seems like he was constantly fighting Rudolf's liberalism, but Franz Joseph might have acted more liberally if his son had kept fighting with him for more years and as he grew older. Franz Joseph may have then been less conservative in his later years.

Actually no, Sissi's wanderlust and depression had nothing to do with Rudolf's death - true it might have been aggravated by it, but it was not the root cause. The main reason for it was that she felt alone and isolated (partly due to her mother-in-law's micromanaging at the beginning of her marriage), and also, while Franz Josef was definitely in love with her, hers was more like a teenage crush.

From another alt-history site:
Not only that, FJ, on poor information, assigned a harsh, dysfunctional veteran to raise the boy Rudolf. The latter developed some pretty severe pathologies after being told that being woken up by firing pistols was making a man of him. Afterwards he despised hunting and other traditional manly pastimes, partly from being unable to understand them and not being taught so by his father. Later, when given a camarilla to induct him into the world of men, he moved to the opposite extreme due to their encouragement. He descended into excessive vice (especially with women) and harboured a sort of sadistic feeling that caused him to enjoy being cruel to the animals he hunted and so forth. If anybody has not done so yet, he should read The Tragedy at Mayerling, where I am getting most of this information.
 
Hello, all!

I'm sorry if I am doing this wrong. I have never read alternate history (or even heard of it) until I met my boyfriend (user: Hnau), so I am not sure how this all works or what the rules are. I am mostly interested in individual people in history and how they effected their era, especially European royalty. In any case, I wanted to make a post about Princess Sissi of Austria, since I think she's fascinating. Instead, I decided to post about her son, the Crown Prince of Austria, Rudolf.

ACTUAL HISTORY:

In a nutshell, Rudolf was the crown prince of Austria and the only son of Empress Elisabeth and her husband, Emperor Franz Joseph I. He was married in 1881 at age 22 and had a child, but the marriage was strained. Therefore, he began having many affairs throughout their marriage. In 1887, Rudolf bought the Mayerling Hunting Lodge. In 1888, he met the 17 year old Baroness Marie Vetsera and began an affair with her. In an 1889 event now called the Mayerling Incident, Rudolf killed Marie and then himself. There are many theories as to why he did this (a murder-suicide spurred by a quarrel with his father over his affair, varying political plots), but the exact cause is unknown because much of the evidence gathered at the time was destroyed for fear of a political scandal.

As a result, Emperor Franz Joseph's brother, Karl Ludwig, became the next heir, but Karl Ludwig renounced his succession rights in favor of his eldest son, Franz Ferdinand.

ALTERNATE HISTORY

I'm working under the assumption that the murder-suicide was not a political plot, but it was committed because of the relationship between Rudolf and Marie, whether for issues between themselves or issues between Rudolf and his family.

What if Rudolf never met Marie Vetsera? He had had many affairs before, and none of them had taken such a terrible hold on him as this one. None of them had had such negative impacts on him or his family besides social embarrassment. Had Rudolf never met Marie, he never would have killed himself. Had he never died, he would have been the next in line, not Franz Ferdinand. Thus Franz Ferdinand would have been a less valuable target in the plot that actually took his life in 1914, and he perhaps would not have died at all, stalling (but not preventing) World War I. Additionally, the house of Habsburg would still exist today as a royal house because when Emperor Franz Joseph died in 1916, his throne would have gone on to Rudolf instead of Franz Joseph's grandnephew Charles, who abdicated in 1918, ending the Habsburgs.

Thoughts?

Sorry if this isn't the usual alternate history. I don't know how this all works.

First off, welcome to the board!

Second, very interesting question. I for one would love to see someone right a TL on Crown Prince Rudolf as Emperor. However, there are a few problems with this. One, meeting Marie Vetsera had nothing to do with his death (whether it be suicide or murder). In the last few years of his life Rudolf suffered from depression, and had already approached several mistresses about a suicide pact. Vetsera was the only one who apparently said yes. Second, at this point Rudolf had already caught a Venereal disease, possibly syphilis. His health was pretty much doing a noise dive, so even if he never committed suicide/was murdered there's no guarantee that he would live long enough to become Emperor.

So I think you would need an earlier POD. Perhaps Rudolf never catches whatever disease he had, keeping his health and is able to have further children with his wife, Stephenie of Belgium. I think this would help insure that Rudolf is able to become Emperor.
 
This itself is a wonderful idea for a TL but as already said if Rudolf (R.I.P.) hadn't committed suicide with Marie he still probably would have died of Syphilis which he had contracted due to his many affairs. The syphilis was one of the main causes of his death since it had by that state, advanced enough that it had been affecting his mind. Basically you need to butterfly away his contraction and even then that doesn't fix his estrangement from his father and mutual loathing from the ruling conservatives who ran Austria-Hungary. If you can get him to simply bide his time and wait out for Franz's death then he can finally begin to make a move towards reforming the empire.

Edit: all in all please write this :D
 
Last edited:

Hnau

Banned
When do you think syphilis would have killed Rudolf had he avoided his suicidal tendencies?
 
When do you think syphilis would have killed Rudolf had he avoided his suicidal tendencies?

Hard to tell really. The only treatment for it back then was mercury pills, which is pretty much taking poison. So if it was advanced enough to affect his mind, I'd guess sometime in the 1890's.
 
I think also a part of Rudolf's depression/feeling useless had to do with the overbloated bureaucracy of the empire, and FJ's refusal to allow him any say in politics.

Then there's his marriage - it wasn't helped by Sissi referring to Stephanie as "the clumsy oaf", "the left-footed elephant" etc. It seems she remembered nothing of her own mother-in-law's treatment when her son married. Then there's the fact that Stephanie's only pregnancy was a girl - probably further adding to Rudolf's feelings of inadequacy. Then there's the fact that Rudolf had a double dose of Wittelsbach blood (which probably helped contribute to his depression, frustration, suicidal thoughts etc - think Ludwig II, Otto, and Alexandrina of Bavaria [who believed she had swallowed a glass piano]).
 
I think also a part of Rudolf's depression/feeling useless had to do with the overbloated bureaucracy of the empire, and FJ's refusal to allow him any say in politics.

Then there's his marriage - it wasn't helped by Sissi referring to Stephanie as "the clumsy oaf", "the left-footed elephant" etc. It seems she remembered nothing of her own mother-in-law's treatment when her son married. Then there's the fact that Stephanie's only pregnancy was a girl - probably further adding to Rudolf's feelings of inadequacy. Then there's the fact that Rudolf had a double dose of Wittelsbach blood (which probably helped contribute to his depression, frustration, suicidal thoughts etc - think Ludwig II, Otto, and Alexandrina of Bavaria [who believed she had swallowed a glass piano]).

I wouldn't say that. Yes the bureaucracy and government didn't really want Rudolf to have any power early, but the so called problems with his father is way overblown. They had they're disagreements sure, but for the most part they got along. Hell before his death Rudolf was/ was going (can't remember which) to be appointed inspector-general of the army. Now does that sound like Franz-Josef had no trust or confidence in him?

Now the Wittselbach blood and Sissi, I completely agree with. For all the romanticism that surrounds the Empress, she was a rather pathetic woman. Refusing to do her official duties in favor of hunting and riding in Hungary or traveling across the continent, treating her daughter-in-law like crap, not to mention abandoning her family when Rudolf died.

In all Rudolf drew the genetic sort straw, and his personality, along with environment helped affect him as well. But I for one think the depression mainly started over the syphilis ruining his health and any chance of a son.
 
IF Rudolf lived - even only for some years - it would certainly affect his family.

Give him 10 years more to live he might father a son (even if his marriage was not happy - stranger things had happened - ;))

His daughter "Erszy" would have a father for 10 years more - which might change her personality and prevent the "bad" choices in her live - probably even there could be a marriage between her and Wilhelm of Prussia (Willy II son) would happen (was considered).

Franz Ferdinand would NOT be heir (with Rudolf having a son) and would be able to marry Sopihe without the humilating conditions.

With Rudolf living longer he would gradually be allowed to assume more duties. He had a personal Friendship with Franz Ferdinand and both might be able to influende Franz Josef more than FF could do later alone.

THE Suicide was a scandal and was a blow to the Monarchy in the eyes of the population - a death later would probably be seen as a tragic event and actually raise symphaties for the elderly Monarch.

A grandson might change Sissys timetable for journeys which might prevent her death (Luceni did not originally PLAN to kill Sissy - his intended target was Henri Philippe Marie d’Orléans).
 
Before I ramble, I want to make one point of clarification: Charles I/IV did not abdicate, at least in his own mind and the mind of Royalists and Loyalists. The November 11 Proclamation and its counterpart for the Apostolic Kingdom, while releasing the Emperor's officials and recognizing the Austrian people's right to decide their fate, never uses the word 'abdicate' and Charles (and his supporters) felt that even that was a questionable thing as it was a decision made under duress. This is part of the reason why Hungary could go on claiming to be a Kingdom well into the Second World War.

Now to the topic at hand. If Rudolf lives, I'd agree with others above, that he's likely to still predecease his father because of his syphilis (I believe it was syphilis, I could be wrong). But keeping him around, again as others have mentioned, offers some opportunities:

- Franz Ferdinand doesn't have the pressure the marry at his station and without being heir apparent he also doesn't have as much influence at court. I honestly think Franz Joseph (and the court in general) would have been more open to Franz Ferdinand's ideas if that had come from literally anyone other than him, because I cannot state enough how annoying apparently everyone in Vienna found him to be.
- Rudolf's prolonged life may be able to bring around his father to certain liberalizations especially moves toward a federated monarchy, an idea which to be fair, Franz Joseph and his advisers had toyed with and may have gone toward on, had it not been for the Hungarians. Least we also forget, it was Franz Joseph, not the Parliament, who promulgated universal manhood suffrage. So he's not actually as immovable as he's often portrayed.
- Finally a protracted death for Rudolf (from his STI) offers an interesting possibility of succession. If Rudolf lives longer the assumption becomes increasingly more established that he will take the throne, which means his legal heir would be, in fact, an heiress. Now while perhaps it's never outwardly stated that she will take the throne, one can assume that Rudolf would likely educate her thusly, because even if Franz Joseph is opposed to it, everyone believes Rudolf with succeed him and can then do as he pleases. Elisabeth and her mother were never close (this could be argued as resulting from her father's death but given her strong personality I'll assume it would occur regardless) but she also wasn't close with the Empress Elisabeth, who detested the thought of being a grandmother and thus ignored her grandchildren categorically. So, Elisabeth likely is raised in proximity to Franz Joseph and let's say Rudolf lives a maximum of another ten years (honestly I'm picking an arbitrary number) which could lead to two possibilities (well two that I want to explore): 1. Rudolf's death is prolonged and he begs his father to establish succession such that Elisabeth becomes 2nd in line to the throne after him. 2. Perhaps if Rudolf dies in Elisabeth's tween years, she grows especially close to her grandfather, who by all accounts was a family person, and Franz Joseph alters (okay alters is actually a bad word, maybe establishes would be a better way of phrasing it) succession of his own accord. There is certainly precedent - Maria Theresia - and beside her, the Habsburgs had a history of placing daughters in important positions. Of course she'd likely be married off to a cousin, maybe from the Tuscan branch of the family, but this seems an acceptable solution.

On final thought, Rudolf's survival means that Franz Joseph doesn't even think to exercise Jus exclusivae in 1903, possibly preserving the right for a time.
 
Before I ramble, I want to make one point of clarification: Charles I/IV did not abdicate, at least in his own mind and the mind of Royalists and Loyalists. The November 11 Proclamation and its counterpart for the Apostolic Kingdom, while releasing the Emperor's officials and recognizing the Austrian people's right to decide their fate, never uses the word 'abdicate' and Charles (and his supporters) felt that even that was a questionable thing as it was a decision made under duress. This is part of the reason why Hungary could go on claiming to be a Kingdom well into the Second World War.

Now to the topic at hand. If Rudolf lives, I'd agree with others above, that he's likely to still predecease his father because of his syphilis (I believe it was syphilis, I could be wrong). But keeping him around, again as others have mentioned, offers some opportunities:

- Franz Ferdinand doesn't have the pressure the marry at his station and without being heir apparent he also doesn't have as much influence at court. I honestly think Franz Joseph (and the court in general) would have been more open to Franz Ferdinand's ideas if that had come from literally anyone other than him, because I cannot state enough how annoying apparently everyone in Vienna found him to be.
- Rudolf's prolonged life may be able to bring around his father to certain liberalizations especially moves toward a federated monarchy, an idea which to be fair, Franz Joseph and his advisers had toyed with and may have gone toward on, had it not been for the Hungarians. Least we also forget, it was Franz Joseph, not the Parliament, who promulgated universal manhood suffrage. So he's not actually as immovable as he's often portrayed.
- Finally a protracted death for Rudolf (from his STI) offers an interesting possibility of succession. If Rudolf lives longer the assumption becomes increasingly more established that he will take the throne, which means his legal heir would be, in fact, an heiress. Now while perhaps it's never outwardly stated that she will take the throne, one can assume that Rudolf would likely educate her thusly, because even if Franz Joseph is opposed to it, everyone believes Rudolf with succeed him and can then do as he pleases. Elisabeth and her mother were never close (this could be argued as resulting from her father's death but given her strong personality I'll assume it would occur regardless) but she also wasn't close with the Empress Elisabeth, who detested the thought of being a grandmother and thus ignored her grandchildren categorically. So, Elisabeth likely is raised in proximity to Franz Joseph and let's say Rudolf lives a maximum of another ten years (honestly I'm picking an arbitrary number) which could lead to two possibilities (well two that I want to explore): 1. Rudolf's death is prolonged and he begs his father to establish succession such that Elisabeth becomes 2nd in line to the throne after him. 2. Perhaps if Rudolf dies in Elisabeth's tween years, she grows especially close to her grandfather, who by all accounts was a family person, and Franz Joseph alters (okay alters is actually a bad word, maybe establishes would be a better way of phrasing it) succession of his own accord. There is certainly precedent - Maria Theresia - and beside her, the Habsburgs had a history of placing daughters in important positions. Of course she'd likely be married off to a cousin, maybe from the Tuscan branch of the family, but this seems an acceptable solution.

On final thought, Rudolf's survival means that Franz Joseph doesn't even think to exercise Jus exclusivae in 1903, possibly preserving the right for a time.


Elsisabeth would not be the Sucessor of Rudolf - even if he was crowned Emperor - as long as there is a eligible male heir the throne would pass to him. Only if there was no male heir the throne passes to an eligible female heiress - as was the case for Maria-Theresia (only one).

Karl never abdicated as Emperor (King of Hungary) - he abstained from taking part in the administration (Verzicht auf jeden Anteil an den Staatsgeschäften).
 
First off, welcome to the board!

Second, very interesting question. I for one would love to see someone right a TL on Crown Prince Rudolf as Emperor. However, there are a few problems with this. One, meeting Marie Vetsera had nothing to do with his death (whether it be suicide or murder). In the last few years of his life Rudolf suffered from depression, and had already approached several mistresses about a suicide pact. Vetsera was the only one who apparently said yes. Second, at this point Rudolf had already caught a Venereal disease, possibly syphilis. His health was pretty much doing a noise dive, so even if he never committed suicide/was murdered there's no guarantee that he would live long enough to become Emperor.

So I think you would need an earlier POD. Perhaps Rudolf never catches whatever disease he had, keeping his health and is able to have further children with his wife, Stephenie of Belgium. I think this would help insure that Rudolf is able to become Emperor.

That's right. After I made the post, I read that he had approached others about a suicide pact, so I see that is an issue in this alternate history. It makes me wonder at the heritability of depression, because his mother was also prone to depression and anxiety. (Personally, I find her way more fascinating than Rudolf, though i wouldn't know where to start with an Alternate History for her...).

I hadn't read that he had caught any diseases, though. Do you have a source for that?
 
This itself is a wonderful idea for a TL but as already said if Rudolf (R.I.P.) hadn't committed suicide with Marie he still probably would have died of Syphilis which he had contracted due to his many affairs. The syphilis was one of the main causes of his death since it had by that state, advanced enough that it had been affecting his mind. Basically you need to butterfly away his contraction and even then that doesn't fix his estrangement from his father and mutual loathing from the ruling conservatives who ran Austria-Hungary. If you can get him to simply bide his time and wait out for Franz's death then he can finally begin to make a move towards reforming the empire.

Edit: all in all please write this :D

As a newbie to Alternate History... write... what? like, the actual story of all this happening? Whoa. I hadn't even thought that far ahead. I'll probably have to get Hnau to help me out with that, as he's better at this than I am. :) Also, I had a separate idea about this family that I wanted to pass by you guys.... but it's very open ended and I don't know where to take it. I don't know if I should make a separate post for it or write it on this one....
 
I think also a part of Rudolf's depression/feeling useless had to do with the overbloated bureaucracy of the empire, and FJ's refusal to allow him any say in politics.

Then there's his marriage - it wasn't helped by Sissi referring to Stephanie as "the clumsy oaf", "the left-footed elephant" etc. It seems she remembered nothing of her own mother-in-law's treatment when her son married. Then there's the fact that Stephanie's only pregnancy was a girl - probably further adding to Rudolf's feelings of inadequacy. Then there's the fact that Rudolf had a double dose of Wittelsbach blood (which probably helped contribute to his depression, frustration, suicidal thoughts etc - think Ludwig II, Otto, and Alexandrina of Bavaria [who believed she had swallowed a glass piano]).


I would really love to read more about the family dynamics at play in this particular branch of the Habsburgs, but don't know of any good quality books or articles to read. Do you have any to recommend? I am kind of obsessed with Sissi and want to know more about her day-to-day life and personality, and there's only so much Wikipedia can tell...
 
Before I ramble, I want to make one point of clarification: Charles I/IV did not abdicate, at least in his own mind and the mind of Royalists and Loyalists. The November 11 Proclamation and its counterpart for the Apostolic Kingdom, while releasing the Emperor's officials and recognizing the Austrian people's right to decide their fate, never uses the word 'abdicate' and Charles (and his supporters) felt that even that was a questionable thing as it was a decision made under duress. This is part of the reason why Hungary could go on claiming to be a Kingdom well into the Second World War.

Now to the topic at hand. If Rudolf lives, I'd agree with others above, that he's likely to still predecease his father because of his syphilis (I believe it was syphilis, I could be wrong). But keeping him around, again as others have mentioned, offers some opportunities:

- Franz Ferdinand doesn't have the pressure the marry at his station and without being heir apparent he also doesn't have as much influence at court. I honestly think Franz Joseph (and the court in general) would have been more open to Franz Ferdinand's ideas if that had come from literally anyone other than him, because I cannot state enough how annoying apparently everyone in Vienna found him to be.
- Rudolf's prolonged life may be able to bring around his father to certain liberalizations especially moves toward a federated monarchy, an idea which to be fair, Franz Joseph and his advisers had toyed with and may have gone toward on, had it not been for the Hungarians. Least we also forget, it was Franz Joseph, not the Parliament, who promulgated universal manhood suffrage. So he's not actually as immovable as he's often portrayed.
- Finally a protracted death for Rudolf (from his STI) offers an interesting possibility of succession. If Rudolf lives longer the assumption becomes increasingly more established that he will take the throne, which means his legal heir would be, in fact, an heiress. Now while perhaps it's never outwardly stated that she will take the throne, one can assume that Rudolf would likely educate her thusly, because even if Franz Joseph is opposed to it, everyone believes Rudolf with succeed him and can then do as he pleases. Elisabeth and her mother were never close (this could be argued as resulting from her father's death but given her strong personality I'll assume it would occur regardless) but she also wasn't close with the Empress Elisabeth, who detested the thought of being a grandmother and thus ignored her grandchildren categorically. So, Elisabeth likely is raised in proximity to Franz Joseph and let's say Rudolf lives a maximum of another ten years (honestly I'm picking an arbitrary number) which could lead to two possibilities (well two that I want to explore): 1. Rudolf's death is prolonged and he begs his father to establish succession such that Elisabeth becomes 2nd in line to the throne after him. 2. Perhaps if Rudolf dies in Elisabeth's tween years, she grows especially close to her grandfather, who by all accounts was a family person, and Franz Joseph alters (okay alters is actually a bad word, maybe establishes would be a better way of phrasing it) succession of his own accord. There is certainly precedent - Maria Theresia - and beside her, the Habsburgs had a history of placing daughters in important positions. Of course she'd likely be married off to a cousin, maybe from the Tuscan branch of the family, but this seems an acceptable solution.

On final thought, Rudolf's survival means that Franz Joseph doesn't even think to exercise Jus exclusivae in 1903, possibly preserving the right for a time.


I have nothing to add - you all seem much more caught up in the history than I am, so you've said it all. I just want to say these are all awesome ideas and the family of Maria Theresa and this family, of Franz Joseph and Sissi, are my two favorite royal families to read about.
 
As a newbie to Alternate History... write... what? like, the actual story of all this happening? Whoa. I hadn't even thought that far ahead. I'll probably have to get Hnau to help me out with that, as he's better at this than I am. :) Also, I had a separate idea about this family that I wanted to pass by you guys.... but it's very open ended and I don't know where to take it. I don't know if I should make a separate post for it or write it on this one....

Write the Time Line (TL) for this of course :) A timeline with Rudolf reigning as Emperor of AH is probably near nonexistent on this site as far as I can tell (granted this site has been on for a while so who knows) And no rush (or pressure) I encourage everyone who has idea that I love to write them :p

As for your idea go right ahead and post it here. This is your thread, so do what you will within the confines of the law ;)

I have nothing to add - you all seem much more caught up in the history than I am, so you've said it all. I just want to say these are all awesome ideas and the family of Maria Theresa and this family, of Franz Joseph and Sissi, are my two favorite royal families to read about.

We're all just providing food for thought the problem with Rudolf is that there isn't much on him book wise so it's all open to debate which is part of the fun on the board :D
 
Last edited:
Before I ramble, I want to make one point of clarification: Charles I/IV did not abdicate, at least in his own mind and the mind of Royalists and Loyalists. The November 11 Proclamation and its counterpart for the Apostolic Kingdom, while releasing the Emperor's officials and recognizing the Austrian people's right to decide their fate, never uses the word 'abdicate' and Charles (and his supporters) felt that even that was a questionable thing as it was a decision made under duress. This is part of the reason why Hungary could go on claiming to be a Kingdom well into the Second World War.

Now to the topic at hand. If Rudolf lives, I'd agree with others above, that he's likely to still predecease his father because of his syphilis (I believe it was syphilis, I could be wrong). But keeping him around, again as others have mentioned, offers some opportunities:

- Franz Ferdinand doesn't have the pressure the marry at his station and without being heir apparent he also doesn't have as much influence at court. I honestly think Franz Joseph (and the court in general) would have been more open to Franz Ferdinand's ideas if that had come from literally anyone other than him, because I cannot state enough how annoying apparently everyone in Vienna found him to be.
- Rudolf's prolonged life may be able to bring around his father to certain liberalizations especially moves toward a federated monarchy, an idea which to be fair, Franz Joseph and his advisers had toyed with and may have gone toward on, had it not been for the Hungarians. Least we also forget, it was Franz Joseph, not the Parliament, who promulgated universal manhood suffrage. So he's not actually as immovable as he's often portrayed.
- Finally a protracted death for Rudolf (from his STI) offers an interesting possibility of succession. If Rudolf lives longer the assumption becomes increasingly more established that he will take the throne, which means his legal heir would be, in fact, an heiress. Now while perhaps it's never outwardly stated that she will take the throne, one can assume that Rudolf would likely educate her thusly, because even if Franz Joseph is opposed to it, everyone believes Rudolf with succeed him and can then do as he pleases. Elisabeth and her mother were never close (this could be argued as resulting from her father's death but given her strong personality I'll assume it would occur regardless) but she also wasn't close with the Empress Elisabeth, who detested the thought of being a grandmother and thus ignored her grandchildren categorically. So, Elisabeth likely is raised in proximity to Franz Joseph and let's say Rudolf lives a maximum of another ten years (honestly I'm picking an arbitrary number) which could lead to two possibilities (well two that I want to explore): 1. Rudolf's death is prolonged and he begs his father to establish succession such that Elisabeth becomes 2nd in line to the throne after him. 2. Perhaps if Rudolf dies in Elisabeth's tween years, she grows especially close to her grandfather, who by all accounts was a family person, and Franz Joseph alters (okay alters is actually a bad word, maybe establishes would be a better way of phrasing it) succession of his own accord. There is certainly precedent - Maria Theresia - and beside her, the Habsburgs had a history of placing daughters in important positions. Of course she'd likely be married off to a cousin, maybe from the Tuscan branch of the family, but this seems an acceptable solution.

On final thought, Rudolf's survival means that Franz Joseph doesn't even think to exercise Jus exclusivae in 1903, possibly preserving the right for a time.


True Karl I & IV did NOT abdicate. Hell the November 11th manifesto went out if its way to avoid using the word abdication or any hint of it.

First, I agree 100& about the Franz Ferdinand vs. Rudolf analogy as well. The Archduke had some good ideas, but his own arrogance combined with his marriage and the Emperor's own dislike of him (at one point it was highly believed that Franz Ferdinand would be bypassed as heir in favor of his brother, Otto) made it next to impossible for any of them to be implemented before his ascension.

Second, you might be on to something there. I remember that at one point, I believe in either the late 1890s or early 1900s, the Hungarian parliament was being especially difficult (either over something with expanding their half of the military budget or a fight over universal suffrage) most of the army leaders in Vienna were encouraging a coup in Budapest, but the Emperor instead gave the Hungarians an ultimatum to shape up or else. Obviously they caved and approved whatever it was they were opposing, but maybe Rudolf could lend his voice to the army, allowing a coup to go ahead. Really that would be the BEST thing for the Empire, removing the Magyar aristocracy's power over half of the Monarchy and allowing a true federal union to emerge.

Sadly I gotta disagree here. Even if its obvious that Rudolf won't be producing a male heir, there's no chance of Elisabeth Marie becoming heiress. One, in OTL she was very close to her grandfather (remember that her marriage should have been considered unequal but Franz Josef allowed it to be equal) but there was never a hint of her becoming Crown Princess. Second, though Maria Theresa was highly admired and important for Habsburg mythos, no one in the family wanted to see a second Empress Regnant. There would likely be major revolts among the Imperial House should the Emperor try something like that. Third, the pragmatic succession only allowed female rule to occur if the ENTIRE male line went extinct (like the Pauline laws of Russia) so legally the situation would require a major change to allow an Empress Elisabeth Marie. Maybe, if Rudolf lives longer, we would see his daughter married to a ranking Archduke (like TTL's Archduke Karl), ensuring that the Emperor's line continues to sit on the Imperial throne, but I can't see much else besides that.
 
Write the Time Line (TL) for this of course :) A timeline with Rudolf reigning as Emperor of AH is probably near nonexistent on this site as far as I can tell (granted this site has been on for a while so who knows) And no rush (or pressure) I encourage everyone who has idea that I love to write them :p

As for your idea go right ahead and post it here. This is your thread, so do what you will within the confines of the law ;)

First off, what does a timeline look like? Do you have an easy one you can suggest I look at that is easy to understand and makes it clear what a timeline should look like?

Secondly, my idea: Franz Joseph was originally supposed to marry Elisabeth's older sister, Helene. Franz Joseph and Helene were set up to meet each other for the engagement, and Helene's mother let Elisabeth tag along. Once Franz Joseph saw Elisabeth, he said he would only marry her and no one else. So, the alternate timeline would be: what if Elisabeth didn't tag along on that trip? Would Franz Joseph and Helene meet and marry and then have a happy marriage?
 

Hnau

Banned
First off, what does a timeline look like? Do you have an easy one you can suggest I look at that is easy to understand and makes it clear what a timeline should look like?

There's no set format for a "timeline". You can just write the events following the point of divergence as if its a textbook, or actually break it down from year-to-year, or you can write the timeline in the same way historical fiction is written. It's up to you, however you want to illustrate how history proceeds differently. Why don't you check out the Finished Timelines and Scenarios sub-forum for examples?

Secondly, my idea: Franz Joseph was originally supposed to marry Elisabeth's older sister, Helene. Franz Joseph and Helene were set up to meet each other for the engagement, and Helene's mother let Elisabeth tag along. Once Franz Joseph saw Elisabeth, he said he would only marry her and no one else. So, the alternate timeline would be: what if Elisabeth didn't tag along on that trip? Would Franz Joseph and Helene meet and marry and then have a happy marriage?

That sounds way cool. Maybe Helene would be more committed to the marriage than Elisabeth. They might even have a son they would name Rudolf, though he'd be completely different from our timeline's Rudolf. If you pursue this point of divergence, though, you might have to start a new thread since it involves an earlier, different change than what you postulated in the OP.
 
Top