Royal Navy vs. the Continent 1917

SsgtC

Banned
Honestly, I think you just need better radio use. OTL saw an over reliance on flags to control the fleet. The question is, how do you get the various Admirals to use they're radios effectively? I understand not wanting to use a radio while you're still searching for the enemy so they can't get a fix on your position. But once you've located them, that should be the least of your worries
 
On the Subject of the Japanese Fleet - they were largely British designs at this time

The 4 Kongo Battle Cruisers where Half sisters of HMS Lion and HMS Queen Mary and the first unit Kongo was built at Vickers in Barrow Upon Furness - other Navys looked upon them with envy inc the British

The 2 Fusos where a match for pretty much anything afloat in 1917

So not Junk.

On the subject of Coordinating the fleets and use of Radio

Radio was a relatively new item and its use as a tactical device still being learned.

Its one thing using it to coordinate the fleet when the enemy could be listening in - and another altogther different thing to use it in an emergency ie Sheer telling his fleet to run for it at Jutland when the enemy already knows all there is to know.

Flag and Light signals where well established as a method of communication in 1917 - the Grand Fleet managed to Cross the HSFs T twice at Jutland despite very poor visbility.

They should be fine in this scenario.
 
OTOH, put the USN with the Continentals, and the day the RN engages them is the day the RN ceases to exist as they would be going up against 59 dreadnoughts with their 35.

I doubt that the USN would be much of an asset to either side. When some American battleships joined the Grand Fleet their gunnery was appallingly poor, to the point that they were almost returned to the US as being a liability. I also suspect that Spanish, Italian and AH gunnery would be about as bad, so all these ships would be little more than targets. The only navies that could approach the RN in terms of gunnery would be the German and (possibly) the Russian.

Additionally, the AH and Italian Dreadnoughts were designed for the Mediterranean, so were lacking in seaworthiness and range. If the Continentals can merge their fleets - which is by no means certain - the RN should try to lure them as far to the west as possible so that Atlantic weather can take a toll on the Mediterranean navies.
 
I doubt that the USN would be much of an asset to either side. When some American battleships joined the Grand Fleet their gunnery was appallingly poor, to the point that they were almost returned to the US as being a liability. I also suspect that Spanish, Italian and AH gunnery would be about as bad, so all these ships would be little more than targets. The only navies that could approach the RN in terms of gunnery would be the German and (possibly) the Russian.

Additionally, the AH and Italian Dreadnoughts were designed for the Mediterranean, so were lacking in seaworthiness and range. If the Continentals can merge their fleets - which is by no means certain - the RN should try to lure them as far to the west as possible so that Atlantic weather can take a toll on the Mediterranean navies.

The US battleships what presumably not have their crews drafted for new construction just prior to leaving to join up, so they might have good, experienced men in control of the guns.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I doubt that the USN would be much of an asset to either side. When some American battleships joined the Grand Fleet their gunnery was appallingly poor, to the point that they were almost returned to the US as being a liability. I also suspect that Spanish, Italian and AH gunnery would be about as bad, so all these ships would be little more than targets. The only navies that could approach the RN in terms of gunnery would be the German and (possibly) the Russian.

Additionally, the AH and Italian Dreadnoughts were designed for the Mediterranean, so were lacking in seaworthiness and range. If the Continentals can merge their fleets - which is by no means certain - the RN should try to lure them as far to the west as possible so that Atlantic weather can take a toll on the Mediterranean navies.

The USN was expanding rapidly at this point OTL. TTL, it's more likely that the various fleets will have been together for some time and will have spent significant amounts of time at sea and in gunnery practice.
 
When some American battleships joined the Grand Fleet their gunnery was appallingly poor,
What is the lead up for each nation? At the start of the war I think everybody gunnery was appalling or if you where very lucky just bad by 1917 RN grand fleet standards.
 
That's actually what I meant by radio. Was a wireless Morse set
Can you really maintain situational awareness and chain of command with over a hundred ships clicking away on their key buttons? There's no easy way to know who's transmitting.

So, I think both fleets will be stuck with depending on predetermined tactical plans established for predicted situations, with signal flags going down the line from scout to flagship. On this clear day that should suffice, at least until the coal and gun smoke cloud the scene.
 
Can you really maintain situational awareness and chain of command with over a hundred ships clicking away on their key buttons? There's no easy way to know who's transmitting.

So, I think both fleets will be stuck with depending on predetermined tactical plans established for predicted situations, with signal flags going down the line from scout to flagship. On this clear day that should suffice, at least until the coal and gun smoke cloud the scene.

I agree - and so the navy with the most experience of large fleet maneuvers would be at a great advantage - and Jellicoe's Grand fleet managed an 'epic' crossing the T maneuver twice in very poor visibility at Jutland.

On a nice sunny day at 10 am - looks like the RN will be celebrating 2 Trafalgar days every year ;)
 
On a nice sunny day at 10 am - looks like the RN will be celebrating 2 Trafalgar days every year ;)
To repeat Trafalgar the RN we need near zero losses for the RN and about a dozen enemy dreadnoughts captured intact.

Can you imagine "borders away!" in 1917? The Royal Marines may appreciate getting out of their turrets and into the lead for once.
 
To repeat Trafalgar the RN we need near zero losses for the RN and about a dozen enemy dreadnoughts captured intact.

Can you imagine "borders away!" in 1917? The Royal Marines may appreciate getting out of their turrets and into the lead for once.

Well they still had their cutlass drills 1917 ;)

After Trafalgar most of the prizes (which I would not describe as being intact) were lost in a major storm so prizes are not really required and as for Zero losses....damn your eyes sir we lost Lord Nelson - he was worth a dozen ships on his own and that on a bad day! :p
 
I agree - and so the navy with the most experience of large fleet maneuvers would be at a great advantage - and Jellicoe's Grand fleet managed an 'epic' crossing the T maneuver twice in very poor visibility at Jutland.

On a nice sunny day at 10 am - looks like the RN will be celebrating 2 Trafalgar days every year ;)

I would say Jellicoe managed one crossing of the T. The other time, Scheer did it for him.

Well they still had their cutlass drills 1917 ;)

Cutlass drill against rifle and pistol armed enemies...All of the sudden, this comes to mind...

 
I would say Jellicoe managed one crossing of the T. The other time, Scheer did it for him.
It was still a brilliant manoeuvre. He managed to get the Battlefleet in a perfect, 'curved' T.
If the British have Greenboy shells, and manage that T, well then....boom.
 
It was still a brilliant manoeuvre. He managed to get the Battlefleet in a perfect, 'curved' T.
If the British have Greenboy shells, and manage that T, well then....boom.
It is amazing that Scheer got out of this.

220px-Jutland_fleet_action.png
 
I would say Jellicoe managed one crossing of the T. The other time, Scheer did it for him.



Cutlass drill against rifle and pistol armed enemies...All of the sudden, this comes to mind...


Well perhaps the RN just blundered into him then - just happened to form a gun line perfectly - twice - yep you're right let's give the credit to Sheer after all it's not like the Grand fleet practiced such maneuvers or anything.....

As for Cutlass - nice Vid but most sailors on a ship being boarded would not be armed - nor do they have dysentery (Ford had the shits during the filming of that scene so they changed that scene from a sword fight to what we saw - happy accident - one of my favorite shooting scenes after this
and this
) and anyway any boarding party would also have rifles and revolvers/pistols......and Cutlass and be more organised....and..... if a given ship is being boarded it does imply that the ship is either ruined or incapable of resisting. ;)
 
Well perhaps the RN just blundered into him then - just happened to form a gun line perfectly - twice - yep you're right let's give the credit to Sheer after all it's not like the Grand fleet practiced such maneuvers or anything.....

Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought that the first time, Jellicoe did indeed cross Scheer's T, and the second was when Scheer, for reasons unknown even to himself, turned around and stuck his head back into the lion's mouth.

I do know that about boarders, but the vid was just too good not to post.
 
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