Royal Navy violates Ottoman neutrality pursuing Goeben

The idea of Britain allying with the Turks is at least twenty if not thirty years out of date. Sultan Abdul Hamid had clearly shown a preference for Russia over Britain after the occupation of Egypt. By the time of the 1894-96 Armenian massacres, the British were trying to enlist Russian aid in deposing the Sultan
The Russians were much more receptive to Turkish requests for an alliance before the war. Anglo-french resistance to offering Turkey aid against the Balkan states ended the Russian Turkish talks. In the end, the Ottomans went to war as much over grievances with the French and British as with differences with Russia especially the capitulations.

TheSultan was especialy opposed to war

That said, information was rather freely given in the era and knowledge of the straits rather freely known by everyone.

I'm really only basing the post on the word of one submarine commander who successfully penetrated the Straits underwater, and bemoaned the Whitehall Mandarin's decision to unnecessarily put his (and his crew's) neck on the line. How much of his opinion was hearsay, and how much to reliable sources is open to conjecture. The idea that such Intel would be arbitrarily given up is so dissonant to 21st Century thought that I find it interesting.
 
I'm really only basing the post on the word of one submarine commander who successfully penetrated the Straits underwater, and bemoaned the Whitehall Mandarin's decision to unnecessarily put his (and his crew's) neck on the line. How much of his opinion was hearsay, and how much to reliable sources is open to conjecture. The idea that such Intel would be arbitrarily given up is so dissonant to 21st Century thought that I find it interesting.

They were different times. One Austrian colonel ran around Russia with his papers marked "Austrian General Staff Intelligence" and was allowed everywhere. It was common for invitations to army manuevers be given to everyone

That said, some of the strangest things escaped detection- the Germans didn't know about the French 75 recoil system until the Boxer rebellion
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Couldn't the British make some kind of deal with the Ottomans?
Oh, you want Agincourt and Erin?...Well, there's a little problem, and it's called the Goeben.
Btw, IIRC my Strachan, they offered first some "leasing fees" and later also the hand-over of the ships in Semptember 1914 ... ofc only, if Goeben and Breslau and if we are at it every other german militair also leaves the ottoman empire.
But by then the ottoman leaders weren't interested anymore :
the gold from the germans already came in (2 million turkish pounds, roughly equal britain pounds) and the Entente had already rejected the much more important issue, germany had agreed upon :
skipping the "capitulations" ("special rights" for foreigners/foreign capital).
 
Btw, IIRC my Strachan, they offered first some "leasing fees" and later also the hand-over of the ships in Semptember 1914 ... ofc only, if Goeben and Breslau and if we are at it every other german militair also leaves the ottoman empire.
Huh, all I heard was the Brits stonewalled because hey, just the "Sick Man of Europe", who cares about them sitting on Russia's only warm water ports?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Huh, all I heard was the Brits stonewalled because hey, just the "Sick Man of Europe", who cares about them sitting on Russia's only warm water ports?
I.e. the buisnesses going to these warm water ports. About half of all ex- and imports to and fro Russia, the russian empire, stretching from the Warthe-river to Wladiwostok. ... and not the least part of it dealt with by britains.
I.e. what happens, when the 4 brand new russian battleships of Imperatritsa Marija-class under construction come through the straits into the mediterrainian.
I.e. what happens, if the ottomans become aware of the fortune of oil they are sitting on in mesopotamia - and that the british hold their hands on already - on ottoman territory.

There were quite some important reasons for caring to at least try to keep the ottomans out of the war.
 

Deleted member 9338

The British force the straights losing and armoured cruiser acting as a mine sweeper. The hard way.

Than the Royal Navy sinks the Goeben and friend and before turning on the Ottomans signals, is it nessacary for this to continue. Remember most of the Ottoman's industry and all of their armaments industries are on the water. It would take little time for their armament arsenal goes up in smoke.

Yes is is a WWI Copenhagen, but it has presadence.

I wonder how the US reacts. TR will yell Bully.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Tell that to the Cabinet, but apparently, breaking your contract for two more BBs when their crews were already there was far more important....
Actually it needed two independant legal opinions before the cabinet agreed to Chrchills step, invoking a clause of the contract with the ship yard, that was kinda 'standart procedure' in ALL such contracts for war ships built for non-british countries.

It wasn't fully a break of contract. However, what gave it some ... "taste" : It was told the ottoman captain only about an hour after the last rate of payment had confimred arrived on the ship yards bank account.

The information of that, sent by the ottoman ambassador to Constantinople was, what got Enver Pasha finally to convinced his "collegues" to sign the secret treaty with Germany.
 
It wasn't fully a break of contract. However, what gave it some ... "taste" : It was told the ottoman captain only about an hour after the last rate of payment had confimred arrived on the ship yards bank account.
Yeah, that's kinda the issue. It's one thing if they'd announced it ahead of time, instead, they literally waited an hour after the last payment, reeks of milking them for everything, then "approiating" it for national security purposes which totally just came up.
 

Deleted member 9338

Another possibility is the British are off of Constantinople and negotioning the end of a very short war as the Russians are known to of sortied the Black Sea Fleet with several merchants carrying troops. Could speed along the Anglo Ottoman agreement.
 
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