Royal Navy as predicted in March 1939...

Redbeard

Banned
Found this article from the New York Times in March 1939 about the OTL expansion programme of the Royal Navy. It is clearly propaganda and has some "pumped" details like 70 planes on an Illustrious class carrier, but AFAIK the general claims about budget, number of ships etc. are actually what the British planned before France fell and everything had to be focused on fighting U-boats.

But now, what if, say Hitler strokes in his Apple pie in November 1939 and a peace agreement is found - for this purpose never mind the details in Europe - but the RN continue the pre-war expansion programme.

What will the consequences be, not at least in the Far East?

I find it quite interesting how clearly the Far Eastern intentions of the expansion were expressed and says something like: "If we can keep things going until 1942, the Japanese won't have a chance after that!"

What will the Japanese do in this ATL?
 

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I'm probably not the one to discuss this in detail, but my take is this would be better if modified for Pacific War conditions. Not everything there might be needed & some items may be missing.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I'm probably not the one to discuss this in detail, but my take is this would be better if modified for Pacific War conditions. Not everything there might be needed & some items may be missing.
But would the RN fight a war vs Japan in the Pacific?

I would rather think it would be based on Singapore and going up the South China Sea, pass Taiwan and into the Japanese Sea.

We're used to see the IJN as very aggressive, but how will they administer that aggressiveness in this ATL?

They will hardly be stronger in this ATL by 1941/42 than they were in OTL, but the ATL RN by 1941/42 will be very much stronger. Just a detail, the armoured flightdecks of the Illustrious will be quite difficult to penetrate with the 250 kg bombs used by the IJN divebombers (Vals).

Will they try a PH on the RN in Singapore and is that possible without the huge Pacific Ocean to hide in while approaching?

Will they try their luck in 1939/40, before they have the best carriers and planes in service? And if so - where to start? Invade French Indochina to get bases, or just steam down the South China Sea?

Or just fight a defensive war focused on keeping the sea lanes open to China and the campaign there?

Will the British and their allies commit themselves in China, if it comes to war?
 
But would the RN fight a war vs Japan in the Pacific?

If the stakes are high enough. Otherwise they might not have a choice. Japan has half the vote.

I would rather think it would be based on Singapore and going up the South China Sea, pass Taiwan and into the Japanese Sea.

I've not seen much definitive history on the subject. Heard second or third hand claims that Hong Kong and perhaps Shanghai were to be used as forward bases. In the context of 1925 or 1935 that makes sense. In 1941 not so much.

We're used to see the IJN as very aggressive, but how will they administer that aggressiveness in this ATL?

It will be difficult for them. The RN was good, and was capable at night combat. In retrospect there are some other advantages.

They will hardly be stronger in this ATL by 1941/42 than they were in OTL, but the ATL RN by 1941/42 will be very much stronger. Just a detail, the armoured flightdecks of the Illustrious will be quite difficult to penetrate with the 250 kg bombs used by the IJN divebombers (Vals).

A small tactical advantage, but a big one in the long haul. Conversely the Japanese are going to have their design and damage control problems.

Will they try a PH on the RN in Singapore and is that possible without the huge Pacific Ocean to hide in while approaching?

Will they try their luck in 1939/40, before they have the best carriers and planes in service? And if so - where to start? Invade French Indochina to get bases, or just steam down the South China Sea?

Or just fight a defensive war focused on keeping the sea lanes open to China and the campaign there?

If the Brits seek to start with forward bases in Hong Kong or points north the inclination would be to destroy those in a surprise attack, same as the Russians in 1904. Then destroy the enemy main fleet as it attacks north into he Pacific as the Tushima Strait battle. Submarines and air will of course add a lot to the campaigns and battles, & the Brits are less likely to be trapped in a corner.

Will the British and their allies commit themselves in China, if it comes to war?

There are advantages in that direction.
 
What will the consequences be, not at least in the Far East?

I find it quite interesting how clearly the Far Eastern intentions of the expansion were expressed and says something like: "If we can keep things going until 1942, the Japanese won't have a chance after that!"

What will the Japanese do in this ATL?
Without the RN and MN tied down in European war why would Japan be willing to do anything to risk war?

Anyway interesting article need to read it properly.....
 
Thank you for sharing that article. It was fascinating.

To answer your question, if the European countries are not at war and "whittled down" Japan won't take them on. Not sure how it would go because I don't recall Britain caring much about Japans invasion of China. I know GB did not like Chiang Kai shek and had no desire to help him!
 
More to the point, without the Fall of France, Japan doesn't take over French Indochina and give the US a reason to enact their embargo. Which in turn removes the timer on their operations in China.
 
Chiang and his motley lot did not inspire confidence...

...The Marshal of Shanxi, Yan Xishan, was far more impressive. Even the Japanese respected him. A 'should have been' President of China.
 
Found this article from the New York Times in March 1939 about the OTL expansion programme of the Royal Navy. It is clearly propaganda and has some "pumped" details like 70 planes on an Illustrious class carrier, but AFAIK the general claims about budget, number of ships etc. are actually what the British planned before France fell and everything had to be focused on fighting U-boats.

But now, what if, say Hitler strokes in his Apple pie in November 1939 and a peace agreement is found - for this purpose never mind the details in Europe - but the RN continue the pre-war expansion programme.

What will the consequences be, not at least in the Far East?

I find it quite interesting how clearly the Far Eastern intentions of the expansion were expressed and says something like: "If we can keep things going until 1942, the Japanese won't have a chance after that!"

What will the Japanese do in this ATL?

Another thing to remember here is that without a war in Europe distracting the RN - also means massively differing priorities in aircraft production allowing greater priority for RN FAA Aircraft.

Malaya was not even a tertiary theatre OTL given that the British Empire was fighting the BoA, The Italians in the Med and the Vichy French in multiple locations but they still managed to base nearly 250 odd RAF/RAAF/RNZAF aircraft in the country.

Take that away all that other fighting and that is a lot of aeroplanes (even minus war production rates) - not to mention lots of Submarines not fighting the Italians now sinking Merchant shipping with working fish

Also as the implication is no war in Europe then the Japanese do not have French Indo China bases to forward deploy from!

With no war in Europe we might see 2 or even 4 Lions constructed by 1942 and entering service 43/44 - again no war in Europe and no delay to the carriers due to competing priorities so Indomitable and Implacable are not delayed.

With no war in 40-41 then the Ark Royal and Glorious are not lost giving the RN 10 carriers in late 41
 

Driftless

Donor
The RN would need something to counter the A6M Zero, specifically - Seafires, Sea Hurricane, Fulmars, or something else? I know the Swordfish had a very useful career in the Atlantic and Med, but against the Japanese?
 

hipper

Banned
The RN would need something to counter the A6M Zero, specifically - Seafires, Sea Hurricane, Fulmars, or something else? I know the Swordfish had a very useful career in the Atlantic and Med, but against the Japanese?

The Firefly had vairiable geometry wings and in consequence a tighter running circle than the zero, the real problem for the RN is the pool of pre War Japanese pilots who were very skilled.
 
What is there in the Pacific that Britain needs to fight for?

Okay, Japan can extend down towards Fiji, attempting to isolate Australia. But surely the priority is to take Burma, Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, which is not only going to be much harder (impossible?) without Britain fully committed elsewhere, but also produces a war that more resembles the WW2 Med, with navies and land-based air supporting land campaigns, rather than the "carriers everywhere!" of the historical Pacific war.
 
It is worthwhile looking at historical RN and British strategy for war with Japan. I'll have to dig out some books on the RN between the wars.

Broadly speaking, the Singapore Naval Strategy was only the first stage in a multi-year strategy of blockade, submarine action and aerial bombing.

These were:

1. Period of Pre-reinforcement (Hold Singapore as fleet base, Distant blockade at Suez, Cape of Good Hope, East Indies)
2. Period of Consolidation (Re-establish Hong Kong as forward fleet operating base)
3. Period of Advance (Destroy IJN and institute blockade)

459 tankers would be required for a War with Japan.

This link contains a few details:

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...J#v=onepage&q=british war plans japan&f=false
 

Redbeard

Banned
What is there in the Pacific that Britain needs to fight for?

Okay, Japan can extend down towards Fiji, attempting to isolate Australia. But surely the priority is to take Burma, Malaya and the Dutch East Indies, which is not only going to be much harder (impossible?) without Britain fully committed elsewhere, but also produces a war that more resembles the WW2 Med, with navies and land-based air supporting land campaigns, rather than the "carriers everywhere!" of the historical Pacific war.
Exactly!

The Pacific will be a diversion for both.

In OTL the Pacific provided the battlefield because it was the way USA chosed to take to get from USA to Japan.

For the British Empire Singapore sets the agenda as the only fully fledged base and the pre war British plans also envisaged a trade war cutting Japan off from supplies and not at least utilising the substantial pre-war British fleet of ocean going subs but gradually closing with actual fleet operations. I have never seen any indications of ambitions of invading Japan - "just" starving them.

With the IJN preference for complicated plans and diversion moves you could of course to a degree expect them to exactly divert their assets. But this scenario is not about which strait to take around the Philippine Islands but about which Ocean to deploy in - thousand miles apart.

IMHO the big question is WHEN Japan will strike, they really don't have the option of not doing anything.

The article I posted will also be read in Tokya in March 1939, and although it clearly is propaganda loaded, nobody will be in doubt the the British Empire is rearming in an unprecendented degree (bypassing that of pre WWI!) and soon the Japanese chances vs. the British Empire will be non-exististent.

Here from OTL we know how great an asset the IJN naval aviation was, but the Zero only entered service in 1941, in 1940 the Val was still carrying out qualification tests onboard Amagi and Kaga and the Kate had just entered service in small numbers. And the IJN will also be short of the two big carriers (Zuikaku and Shokaku?) which entered service in OTL 1941 (along with Musashi and Yamato). Even the G4M Betty of Force Z fame was only introduced in mid 1941.

As other have pointed out, in an ATL like this the FAA (and the Far East in general)is likely to recieve far more ressources, but even if staying fairly close to OTL the Swordfishes, Albacores and Fulmars and night fighting capacity of the FAA would appear adequate compared to IJN Claudes and biplane divebombers and torpedobombers.

I would think that going down the South China Sea to attack Singapore or FIC would be more than even the most foolhearted IJN admiral would dare, but if focussing on Hong Kong you could perhaps hope on not only taking Hong Kong but also on luring out the RN and inflict some significant losses on it - and then negotiate! I would not appear that much worse a plan than OTL PH - but that really doesn't say much about its chance of succes.

Going directly for the Dutch East Indies would of course be tempting because of the ressources there, but conducting a successful conquest of DEI and maintaining oil production with Singapore still operating on British hands is a very bad plan...

And then the question of course is - what will USA do? It was not least FDR who put the thump screws on Japan for her engagement in China, and I guess USA would at least declare war on Japan if she attacks the British. Probably not with the OTL massive engagement, but I suppose the PI would be defended with what it takes.

I really don't see any likely path out of this for the Japanese, but if any chance attack as soon as possible - late 1939/early 1940? The Admiral in charge will probably write in his diary though: "I fear we have awakened a sleeping Lion..."
 
It's my impression that the Seafire and Sea Hurricane weren't that good.

Compared to what? The Hellcat?

There were few Aircraft better than a Spitfire in the air although granted it did have more problems than say a Hellcat regarding deck ops - however Seafire entered service after a rushed and dare I say panicked development effectively in 1943 for a job it was not designed for while Hellcat was a logical development of the Wildcat which was a logical development of the Grumman FF 'Fifi' which first flew in 1931!

Had it been developed from say 1938 then its development cycle would be 5 years ahead by that stage and far more fit for purpose than the designs that were used in 1943 or even those used by the BPF in 1945!
 
Here from OTL we know how great an asset the IJN naval aviation was, but the Zero only entered service in 1941, in 1940 the Val was still carrying out qualification tests onboard Amagi and Kaga and the Kate had just entered service in small numbers. And the IJN will also be short of the two big carriers (Zuikaku and Shokaku?) which entered service in OTL 1941 (along with Musashi and Yamato). Even the G4M Betty of Force Z fame was only introduced in mid 1941.

This is a really good point! When did the Long Lance torpedo become available because that was another huge weapon advantage.

I would think that going down the South China Sea to attack Singapore or FIC would be more than even the most foolhearted IJN admiral would dare, but if focussing on Hong Kong you could perhaps hope on not only taking Hong Kong but also on luring out the RN and inflict some significant losses on it - and then negotiate! I would not appear that much worse a plan than OTL PH - but that really doesn't say much about its chance of succes.

Going directly for the Dutch East Indies would of course be tempting because of the ressources there, but conducting a successful conquest of DEI and maintaining oil production with Singapore still operating on British hands is a very bad plan...

I really don't see any likely path out of this for the Japanese, but if any chance attack as soon as possible - late 1939/early 1940? The Admiral in charge will probably write in his diary though: "I fear we have awakened a sleeping Lion..."

Japan would take Hong Kong, GB couldn't prevent that from happening. But without the bases in French Indo-china Japan would have base/logistic issues of their own. I don't see how they could project enough power to take Kra Isthmus and eventually Singapore. Singapore is the key for Japan. They have to take that base away from the British in order to succeed.
 
Going directly for the Dutch East Indies would of course be tempting because of the ressources there, but conducting a successful conquest of DEI and maintaining oil production with Singapore still operating on British hands is a very bad plan...
Without FIC and Philippines it gets very interesting for the IJN to go south to fight off Brunei, Formosa or Hainan is a long way away fight a decisive battle and then cover an invasion v the RN coming from Singapore....
 
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