Royal Navy Alternate Cruiser designs post WW1

Single mounts are cheaper and have a faster rate of fire. For a twin 6” turret you can have 3 6” Casemate mounts. The additional advantage is that the turret is vulnerable to loss of power while the single mounts can still be loaded and trained without power.
 
And you can't do a Dido in the 20s. They are the definition of an evolved platform through the Leanders and Arethusas. Best you can hope for in the 20s is a 30knt Arethusa, and that is down the list because it is a fleet cruiser and the RN has plenty of them in mid life.
 
Skip the Arethusa class, too small, make more Didos where at least their small size is offset by credible AA for CBG defence.

And you can't do a Dido in the 20s. They are the definition of an evolved platform through the Leanders and Arethusas. Best you can hope for in the 20s is a 30knt Arethusa, and that is down the list because it is a fleet cruiser and the RN has plenty of them in mid life.

The Dido's were a bad idea anyway, the 5.25" was too heavy for an AA mount and too light for a cruiser engagement. An updated Arethusa with a 6" Main Battery and more 4" secondaries would, with hindsight, have been better. For AA work a 4" mount is far superior, the RN's 4"/45 actually out performs the USN's 5"/38 in terms of surface range and AA ceiling.
A Leander with more 4" mounts would be better still. RN cruiser design in WW2 eventually did supress X-turret in favour of more 4" guns, re. the Minotaurs.
 
That is nice if you have the tons. A Minotaur is 10,000 tons vs less than 8,000 for a Dido or 7,000 for an Arethusa. And if you are arguing about AA it seems some kind of largish caliber auto canon in Q position is the best option. But no one is going to believe that. They don't now.
 
That is nice if you have the tons. A Minotaur is 10,000 tons vs less than 8,000 for a Dido or 7,000 for an Arethusa. And if you are arguing about AA it seems some kind of largish caliber auto canon in Q position is the best option. But no one is going to believe that. They don't now.

Dido is >6000 tons dry

Also to the other comments - it was not perceived as a AAA Cruiser per se - but as a light trade protection cruiser with a 'good enough' gun system that was effective verses cruisers and could also act in the DP role as an AAA gun rather than as a true AAA gun and given the increasing size, speed and altitude of bombers it made sense to have a guns system capable of engaging aircraft at higher altitudes.

Also the other main threat of the day when the 5.25" gun system was conceived was the increasing range, speed and warhead power of destroyer and Cruiser launched torpedoes - meaning that a lighter shorter ranged gun system that might have proven to have been a better AAA system would not have served in this anti DD/CL role

Had the threat of dive bombers etc. been better realized in the 30s then I can see more effort being expended on the 4.5s earlier - but the only real time a warship was attacked by a plane before WW2 it was the Deutschland when she was bombed by Republican aircraft in 1937

The Republic aircraft (Russian Crewed SB-2 Aircraft) had initially tried to attack Nationalist forces moored in Palma Majorca but the British, German and Italian ships that they actually tried to bomb by mistake put up such effective AAA that it forced them to abort the attack

Later on Deutschland went to Ibiza and was again misidentified as a Nationalist Cruiser was bombed again by Russian SB-2 level bombers but this time there being less ships in the port the bombers were not driven off and she was badly bombed.
 
Yes them as well

How were they attacked - Level, Dive or Torpedo attack?

Google fu is weak today

Ning Hai was a target of the Imperial Japanese Navy since the Battle of Shanghai, but it was not until 23 September, during the Japanese assault on Kiangyin Fortress (which guarded a segment of Yangtze Rivernear Nanking), that Ning Hai came under severe attack by Japanese bombers, sustaining four bomb hits while Ping Hai was hit by eight bombs and sunk. Ning Hai escaped but on 25 September when Yokosuka B3Y1 torpedo bombers scored two direct hits, sinking her in shallow water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_cruiser_Ning_Hai

22 September 1937:
In the morning the combined Japanese assault to destroy the Chinese fleet begins with KAGA launching her strikes from a position off Hangchou Bay. At 1030 the first of three raids by by 2nd Combined Air Flotilla's 12th Air Group (Captain Imamura Osamu) falls upon the ships. Twelve Type 92 escorted by six Type 95 attack first. They make bomb runs, concentrating on the two big cruisers; but only score one hit on each and one near-miss with 60kg bombs. Flagship PING HAI is hit forward on the starboard side, causing slight flooding, but her captain Gao Xianshen is badly wounded in the waist and left arm, but continues to fight his ship until relieved. NING HAI receives one hit in the bow. YIXIAN is also hit.



At noon, another wave of Japanese bombers comes in from the west and drops bombs from moderate altitude. This causes minor damage to PING HAI. But during the afternoon seven Type 96 from KAGA attack, scoring near-misses on both cruisers and one direct hit on PING HAI at 1630. One hour later the last attack of the day is made by six Type 92 and three type 95 of the 12th Air Group, which driven away by NING HAI's gunfire, concentrate instead on YING RUI, scoring four hits. Five Japanese a/c are hit by AA-fire. Despite six hours of combat, PING HAI's casualties are light; 5 killed and 23 wounded. In this action, PING HAI fires 265 8-cm rounds and more than 4,000 mg bullets. PING HAI claims five Japanese aircraft shot down. The attacks for the day are over, and the Chinese Fleet survives the first round of attacks. But none can doubt that the next day would bring another. [2]


23 September 1937:
The Japanese follow-up raid takes its time in coming. Morning brought no air raid, but at 1100 two Japanese recon planes are sighted overflying the Chinese fleet. They depart after about a half-hour. It is obvious that a large scale Japanese air attack will be inbound at last. All hands clear for action.


At 1400, the expected attack arrives overhead in the form of nine Type 92 escorted by three Type 95 from 12th Air Group. However, they did not attack the ships, but instead descended upon Jiangyin, bombing to draw fire of the defenses while the second wave hit the ships. This was comprised of twelve Type 94 of the 12th Air Group and now joined by fourteen Type 96 of the 13th Air Group (Captain Senda Sadatochi.) These score two hits each and several near-misses on both PING HAI and NING HAI. A last attack is made by eight type 94 bombers and eight Type 96 carrier attack bombers escorted by four Type 96 fighters from KAGA. These attack in two waves and went after the primary target, the First Fleet flagship PING HAI. They scored three hits with 60kg bombs in the engine room and magazine. This was more than the modest vessel could withstand; PING HAI settles by the bow, and heeling over, bottoms with steep 45 degree port list and forecastle awash. Reportedly just 5 were killed, with 50 wounded (remark: but suspiciously, NING HAI also lists 5 killed). Four Japanese aircraft are claimed shot down in turn.


With PING HAI down, the Japanese swarm over her cousin ship NING HAI. At 1400, as many as thirty-eight planes pounce on the small cruiser from three directions. She receives two hits on the bow and observation post, and several near-misses. Captain Chen Hongtai is wounded in the legs, but remains at post, and gets his ship underway despite a magazine flooded. NING HAI moves upstream away from her stranded sister, but she doesn't get very far before has to halt. NING HAI had suffered 62 casualties of dead and injured, and had fired more than 700 rounds of her 8-cm and 5,000 rounds of mg bullets. Following the loss of PING HAI, the injured CinC transfers his flag to YIXIAN (western YI HSIEN or YAT SEN)


Ping-Haibottomed.jpg
PING HAI, flagship of Gao Xianshen and Chinese First Fleet, was first damaged by air attacks on 22 Sep '37, then sunk in shallow water on 23 Sep '37 by planes from KAGA. View from starboard quarter. Sister NING HAI outlived her by only two more days.(Axis History)




25 September 1937:
The hapless NING HAI outlasts her sister by only forty-eight hours. Six Type 92 carrier attack bombers with three Type 95 fighters from the 12th Air Group make another attack on the Koin area. Barely afloat, NING HAI is helpless and unable to move. Two 60kg direct hits and two near-misses are scored on the cruiser. This does for her, and listing slightly to starboard, she settles by the stern 'til she bottoms upright near Bawei Harbor with after deck submerged to the mainmast and base of the stack. Her starboard beam parallels the nearby shore. Fortunately only five were wounded. Attacked by sixteen planes from KAGA.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Destruction.htm
 
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Dido is >6000 tons dry

Wiki has the heaviest full load at 7,600 tons. I tend to use the heaviest values for the smaller ship when posting to prevent stupid contests.


When would you say dive bombers got the engine power to carry an effective bomb load? Ping Hai is basically a big destroyer.
 
Wiki has the heaviest full load at 7,600 tons. I tend to use the heaviest values for the smaller ship when posting to prevent stupid contests.


When would you say dive bombers got the engine power to carry an effective bomb load? Ping Hai is basically a big destroyer.

I am not sure when. But the RAF called it 'loss Altitude bombing' which says everything you need to know about their attitude (as an organization - a number of individuals tried to champion it during the 30s including one who had spent time with the Swedes and managed to bring back one of their sights) to dive bombing. The RN However once they had regained control of the FAA did carry out some excellent Dive Bombing exercises, using Swordfish in early 1939 using HMS Centurion as the target ship off Malta where they found it to be far more accurate than level bombing

So for the British I would suggest effectively 1939.

Which is probably why during the lead up to Aleman it was 2 Squadrons of FAA Albacores that carried out the lions share of pin point attacks on the Axis defenses.

Ping Hai class were not even that were they? Coal fired 19 knot Coastal Defense ships? Built with Japanese help they were therefore top heavy.
 
Ning Hai was a target of the Imperial Japanese Navy since the Battle of Shanghai, but it was not until 23 September, during the Japanese assault on Kiangyin Fortress (which guarded a segment of Yangtze Rivernear Nanking), that Ning Hai came under severe attack by Japanese bombers, sustaining four bomb hits while Ping Hai was hit by eight bombs and sunk. Ning Hai escaped but on 25 September when Yokosuka B3Y1 torpedo bombers scored two direct hits, sinking her in shallow water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_cruiser_Ning_Hai


http://www.combinedfleet.com/Destruction.htm


Thanks

So the B3Y was a level bomber (as well as a Torpedo bomber) as opposed to being a dive bomber

Although it mentions the Type 96s which were Aichi D1As which were DBs

So maybe this attack was ignored in the West as the ships were effectively coastal ships and in the eyes of Western Observers poorly manned and stationary?
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ning_Hai-class_cruiser

Yep, basically the same dimensions as a tribal class destroyer, but coal fired and with slightly higher displacement.

I find it odd that they have 5.5” main guns. Japanese cruisers had 6.1” guns and their destroyers 5” guns. An orphan gun system for an obsolete when built class of ships?
Some of the older Japanese dreadnought class had that caliber for their secondary armament, for example the Ise class I think?
 
Wasn't the 8'' necessary to allow Treaty Cruisers to engage existing armored cruisers?
 
Dido is >6000 tons dry

Also to the other comments - it was not perceived as a AAA Cruiser per se - but as a light trade protection cruiser with a 'good enough' gun system that was effective verses cruisers and could also act in the DP role as an AAA gun rather than as a true AAA gun and given the increasing size, speed and altitude of bombers it made sense to have a guns system capable of engaging aircraft at higher altitudes.

Heavy AAA guns don't receive the attention they need, as psychological effects from heavy fires from long range were important too, in addition to effects of longer shrapnel range and usually better time fuzes. It should be noted that on land all major combatants ended up with 4,7" - 5,25" or even 6" weapons during WW II.

A 6" twin DP turret for 1930's is perfectly doable, if deemed necessary, and in hindsight would be probably the best option. 6" shells can be man handled, too.

As for 6" cruisers, how do the cost between Tribal, Arethusa, Leander and County compare?
 
Wiki has the heaviest full load at 7,600 tons. I tend to use the heaviest values for the smaller ship when posting to prevent stupid contests.


When would you say dive bombers got the engine power to carry an effective bomb load? Ping Hai is basically a big destroyer.
A early 1930s Curtiss Hawk biplane fighter could dive bomb with a 250kg. That's enough to be effective against anything but battleships or armoured deck carriers. The JuJu87 A in 1937 could carry a 500kg if flown as a single seater. The B in 1938 could carry a 500kg as standard and a 1000kg as a single seater.
Aichis D3A could only carry a 250kg and sank a lot of ships.
Basically the 250kg is the baseline for dive bombers since the first ones.
 

Deleted member 94680

Isn’t it the case in the pre-autoloading era, a smaller calibre gun (4”,4.5”,5” or 5.25”) is better for DP if it’s a separate round?
 
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Then have the USN demand that Fuel and water tankage is not counted as part of the ships weight - the British managed something similar for the BB all up weight?
OTL?
EDIT: Just checked the OTL records. As far as I can tell, from Part 4 concerning Capital Ship and Standard Displacement definition, a vessel is not a Capital ship so long as it does not exceed 10k tons standard displacement, and standard displacement already accounts for fuel oil and reserve feed water as well. Am I missing something in the OTL treaty that says cruisers don't follow that standard, as it seems that they already don't have to account for oil and RFW as part of displacement.
LNT "Cruisers, Surface vessels of war, other than capital ships or aircraft carriers, the standard displacement of which exceeds 1,850 tons (1,880 metric tons), or with a gun above 5.1 inch (130 mm) calibre."
A 6" twin DP turret for 1930's is perfectly doable, if deemed necessary, and in hindsight would be probably the best option. 6" shells can be man handled, too.
6"/50 (15.2 cm) QF Mark N5 and 6"/47DP (15.2 cm) Mark 16 would strongly disagree.......
 
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