Rosa's Reich - Red Germany
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Redshank Galloglass
Banned
I'm not sure how much experience will come into play here. As long as the German Red Army is well disciplined (not breaking under fire/running, panicking when attacked, etc...) and shows at least some initiative they should be able to defeat the White Army, especially if they can take out the White Army's artillery batteries.
Not having experience is problematic for armies with no real senior leadership amongst the rank and file. But as long as the Non-Coms, the Army's Centurions, have at least some experience (which I'm assuming they will, especially since the NCOs and Senior NCOs are likely to be WW1 vets) they should be able to pull the younger guys together to become an effective fighting force.
Not having experience is problematic for armies with no real senior leadership amongst the rank and file. But as long as the Non-Coms, the Army's Centurions, have at least some experience (which I'm assuming they will, especially since the NCOs and Senior NCOs are likely to be WW1 vets) they should be able to pull the younger guys together to become an effective fighting force.
Speaking of which, I wonder would be the core competency of an ATL German White Army.
As veterans of the World War I's Eastern Front, would these be highly experienced troops fighting on their own soil, or exhausted men at the end of their "mental rope", so to speak.
That being said, at the very least I agree, most of these Red Army maneuvers would've came down to discipline under fire. Though were not talking demobilized army vets, but more radicalized home-front industrial workers.
Redshank Galloglass
Banned
The core of the German White Army would probably be comprised of Freikorps paramilitary, many of whom were Ww1 vets. Good for crushing ill-trained union workers in a Citywide Rebellion, but against the German Red Army they might have more difficulty. They also might desert a lot due to war stress, which you covered pretty well.
That being said, I'm aware that the Red Army is mainly comprised of radicalized Union-workers. However, there are likely to be many demobilized veterans in the ranks and ex Freikorps (especially since Thallman is leading them) and they're likely to be the NCOs of the Red Army, as experienced men tend to be. An army without a great NCO corps is not an effective Army.
To pop in on this revised thread about potential knocks on ATL, don't forget the Italian Biennio Rosso having potential butterflies due to a more successful Spartacist Revolution. You might see an Italian Commune rather than an Italian State as well because of this.
And it looks like I missed a vote. Oh well, it's what I would have voted anyway, since short term things like nationality are kind of supposed to fall to the wayside anyway... right?
And it looks like I missed a vote. Oh well, it's what I would have voted anyway, since short term things like nationality are kind of supposed to fall to the wayside anyway... right?
Redshank Galloglass
Banned
Ave Togoiatti and Gramsci, then.
Can we see a Kaiserreich reference here if Britain goes Red?
Ill give you a hint: DIRECT RULE FROM LONDON
Can we see a Kaiserreich reference here if Britain goes Red?
Ill give you a hint: DIRECT RULE FROM LONDON
Hmm... feels a little different than I remember it... I take it no coup attempt against the Bavarians and Drexler has made no move this time around?
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Suffering from the effects of the Kiel sailor/soldier revolts and the subsequent creation of several disparate worker/solider councils in late 1918. The Luxemburgist regime has yet to establish direct contact with them. But outside of the major urban areas, life under the British blockade still goes on as per OTL. (Food shortages, disintegrating imperial bureaucracy, etc)
After going into some research, I found some of the previous choices fell to far out of the range of plausibility. Events similar to this will nonetheless take place, not to worry.
A majority of the central provinces are unaligned or acting independently, trying to carry on some semblance governance in the vain of the outgoing imperial regime.
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Chapter III (1919) | Part V (Councilization Programme)
Chapter III: Expansion
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Time Period: June 24rd - July 1st, 1919
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Time Period: June 24rd - July 1st, 1919
On the morning of June 24th, word of the Red Army’s victory over Ludendorff and his White Army had reached Berlin. Elated, Rosa called another emergency party leadership meeting to decide what was to come next.
“A resounding victory!” said Klara Zetkin as she and other leadership opened with a round of applause.
“Thalmann, as well as Musahm’s Bavarians, have proven to be true heroes of the revolution!”
Ushering to her comrades to stay their celebration, Rosa reminded them this was only the beginning, and much more work had to be done. Over the next several minutes, imperial maps of the eastern territories were brought in by several staff members.
“Our next step is provide immediately relief to our Polish allies,” Rosa said as her hand motioned toward the province of Posen. “Though, we must also simultaneously deal with the other significant threats facing our republic.”
“A resounding victory!” said Klara Zetkin as she and other leadership opened with a round of applause.
“Thalmann, as well as Musahm’s Bavarians, have proven to be true heroes of the revolution!”
Ushering to her comrades to stay their celebration, Rosa reminded them this was only the beginning, and much more work had to be done. Over the next several minutes, imperial maps of the eastern territories were brought in by several staff members.
“Our next step is provide immediately relief to our Polish allies,” Rosa said as her hand motioned toward the province of Posen. “Though, we must also simultaneously deal with the other significant threats facing our republic.”
Pointing to Industry and Transport Director Wilhelm Peck, Rosa asked for a status report on the progress of the national Councilizaiton Programme
In response, Peck declared that while liberating the workers from bourgeoisie ownership was met with much praise, the economic effects were reaping net drains on national production capacity overall.
“Much of the slowdown can to be found in the recently acquired industrial plants in Bamberg,” he said as he pointed to several major districts on a marked map. “Their subsequent mismanagement by the elected council leaderships has caused delays in critical production sectors. These have likewise created shortages of valuable inputs that in turn have also affected our production capacity here in Berlin. In short, hastily constructed worker management, especially at this critical war-time juncture, doesn’t seem to be working.”
Immediately City Security Director Karl Radek interjected, suggesting that experts from the Council Communist Party be sent to help control the worker councils. With Finance Director Ernst Meyer agreeing that central party oversight would also aid in the prevention of corruption of investment funds, Rosa tacitly agreed.
“However, whomever we send to aid them will not hold any political authority over any of the elected council bodies. Regardless of our economic realities, the political liberties of the working class will not be diminished, marginalized, or abated,” she declared.
Turning her attention to the growing threat of the Western created, and backed German-Essen Government, she went on to declare that the biggest challenge lied with them.
In response, Peck declared that while liberating the workers from bourgeoisie ownership was met with much praise, the economic effects were reaping net drains on national production capacity overall.
“Much of the slowdown can to be found in the recently acquired industrial plants in Bamberg,” he said as he pointed to several major districts on a marked map. “Their subsequent mismanagement by the elected council leaderships has caused delays in critical production sectors. These have likewise created shortages of valuable inputs that in turn have also affected our production capacity here in Berlin. In short, hastily constructed worker management, especially at this critical war-time juncture, doesn’t seem to be working.”
Immediately City Security Director Karl Radek interjected, suggesting that experts from the Council Communist Party be sent to help control the worker councils. With Finance Director Ernst Meyer agreeing that central party oversight would also aid in the prevention of corruption of investment funds, Rosa tacitly agreed.
“However, whomever we send to aid them will not hold any political authority over any of the elected council bodies. Regardless of our economic realities, the political liberties of the working class will not be diminished, marginalized, or abated,” she declared.
Turning her attention to the growing threat of the Western created, and backed German-Essen Government, she went on to declare that the biggest challenge lied with them.
“A majority of the provinces that rest along both sides of the Rhine have already declared allegiance to them. However, while the realities in the east require a military approach, I want it to be know that our position toward the West must be one of diplomatic tact. We must not be draw into a sustained military conflict with the reactionaries; doing so will only lead to our utter ruin.” she said.
Ushering to Paul Levi and staff, she then declared her intention to restart a plan originally enacted by Ebert’s regime.
“Therefore, with our victory over a significant remnant of the defunct imperial regime, it is time we call a National Convention.” she said as she stood up from her chair.
“Get the word out publicly that parties from all sides of the political spectrum are welcome to come to Berlin and aid in the establishment of a national consensus on the future of Germany.”
The rest of the leadership vehemently disagreed.
“We have the initiative, Rosa! We do not need to cow to outside demands, especially those that are from ideologues that may represent bourgeois interests.” said Vice Chairman Klara Zetkin.
“That is precisely why we must do this,” Rosa responded.
“The bourgeois powers, with their continuing blockade of our ports, as well as their reactionary occupation over the western provinces, seek to paint us as exactly that; usurpers rather than liberators. Let us correct them of these notions.”
Using the emergency power vested in her position as Party Chairman, Rosa overruled her dissenting comrades and ordered them begin preparations.
Ushering to Paul Levi and staff, she then declared her intention to restart a plan originally enacted by Ebert’s regime.
“Therefore, with our victory over a significant remnant of the defunct imperial regime, it is time we call a National Convention.” she said as she stood up from her chair.
“Get the word out publicly that parties from all sides of the political spectrum are welcome to come to Berlin and aid in the establishment of a national consensus on the future of Germany.”
The rest of the leadership vehemently disagreed.
“We have the initiative, Rosa! We do not need to cow to outside demands, especially those that are from ideologues that may represent bourgeois interests.” said Vice Chairman Klara Zetkin.
“That is precisely why we must do this,” Rosa responded.
“The bourgeois powers, with their continuing blockade of our ports, as well as their reactionary occupation over the western provinces, seek to paint us as exactly that; usurpers rather than liberators. Let us correct them of these notions.”
Using the emergency power vested in her position as Party Chairman, Rosa overruled her dissenting comrades and ordered them begin preparations.
On July 1st, with Thalmann and Musahm’s forces reorganized and now marching to help relieve the Polish KRPR regime to the east, delegates from across unaligned Germany began to arrive in Berlin.
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The answer is no. Either the reactionaries simply ignore it. I'm ready to hear something like - "We will not deal with an unlegal government!"
Wanted to pause here for a moment to highlight something I've tried my best to illustrate in every iteration of this ongoing timeline.
As with Rosa's growing unilateral use of her emergency chairmanship powers, coupled with the challenges created by internal dissent and overall amateur-mismanage of governance (all of which is to be expected in times of revolutionary crisis), the realities of revolution tend to push even the most idealistic persons into acts that may fall within the realms of political tyranny.
The challenge for the Luxemburgists, especially as they attempt to coalesce other leftist, and center-leftist factions into their growing movement, will be how they will manage these obstacles while at the same time not falling in to void of demagoguery and/or Stalinism.
Though please share your thoughts on the matter. Do you think this fate is inevitable for party-centered communist regimes?
As with Rosa's growing unilateral use of her emergency chairmanship powers, coupled with the challenges created by internal dissent and overall amateur-mismanage of governance (all of which is to be expected in times of revolutionary crisis), the realities of revolution tend to push even the most idealistic persons into acts that may fall within the realms of political tyranny.
The challenge for the Luxemburgists, especially as they attempt to coalesce other leftist, and center-leftist factions into their growing movement, will be how they will manage these obstacles while at the same time not falling in to void of demagoguery and/or Stalinism.
Though please share your thoughts on the matter. Do you think this fate is inevitable for party-centered communist regimes?
You're right in pointing out that revolution is an environment of moral complexity, where the demands of social change can easily get out of hand when one attempts to impose them so suddenly. However, I'm not so cynical to think that revolution is always a bad idea. In this case, I think it's important for Rosa to appeal to the grassroots, to the outpouring of local democracy that comes with any revolution that isn't strictly top-down.
On the other hand, the greatest demand for greater centralism will come from those afraid of external enemies, and that is indeed a problem. War with the entente is not an option, so compromise is inevitable. Taken together, the greatest challenge will be to find a way in which the outside powers can de dealt with that doesn't split the revolutionaries from the inside.
But in the end, Rosa isn't Lenin, and Germany isn't Russia, so to think that it'll all turn out like a repeat of the USSR is implausible from the very start. I have high hopes that worker's democracy can be established and preserved!
On the other hand, the greatest demand for greater centralism will come from those afraid of external enemies, and that is indeed a problem. War with the entente is not an option, so compromise is inevitable. Taken together, the greatest challenge will be to find a way in which the outside powers can de dealt with that doesn't split the revolutionaries from the inside.
But in the end, Rosa isn't Lenin, and Germany isn't Russia, so to think that it'll all turn out like a repeat of the USSR is implausible from the very start. I have high hopes that worker's democracy can be established and preserved!
Redshank Galloglass
Banned
I think problems will prove to be abound, especially during the civil war. But rosa is not a Bolshevik and there's a lot more dedication to democracy and worker control of the economy. I believe they'll pull through.