Rommel's Barbarossa 1942 (Continued from Manstein in Africa)

Sandman396

Banned
Blair,

I am sorry but I am going to have to buck the trend here.

I have been disappointed by this thread (and if I am honest the latter half of the Manstein in Africa thread).

I am afraid you have "Jumped the Shark" and strayed heavily into Manstein/Rommel/Nazi-wank territory.

You have actually made things too easy for Rommel and Manstein by so heavily stacking the odds in their favour at each turn.

I will of course keep reading in the hope that you are able to turn this around.

Cheers

S396
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
Ok will play Devils advocate on the Russian side of things I will mostly aim at technical side of weapons here. And Numbers let alone an extra year after the purges improving and getting a bunch of Doctrine changes finished that had started before May 1941.

What Technical changes will the Russians are having. Hmm Lots

Between 1941 and 1942 the Russian had plans for come rather different weapons and some improvements to others, to start with Armour.

Armour Quite likely the Standard Light Tank in productions if not numbers will be the T50 (http://www.battlefield.ru/en/armors/26-light-tanks/96-t50.html)
They were at the stage of trailing this Tank and disruptions due to 1941 Barbarossa stopped it dead especially the Engine production. Main aim of this tank was replacement of the T-26 and BT range of Vehicles.

The T34 as we know it will be the main Tank due to numbers but will be by this time supplanted in production by the somewhat better T34M
(http://www.battlefield.ru/en/armors/32-experimental-vehicles/88-t34m.html )
(http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/tanks/t-34m.php)

Advantages a 3 Man Turret with Commanders Copula 60mm instead of 45 and mechanical improvement to fix what the Russians saw as major differences in the T34 and more complete work on Engine bay, This would lead to better Tank life and more tanks operational getting rid of things like the Air filter clogging. The early T34’s actually broke down allot and with no massive extent of Tank recovery like the Germans had often abandoned by crews.

Also it was intended to supplant Production not completely start from scratch, with the Kharkov Steam-Engine Plant factory not having to move in October 1941 the Production of the older t34 should have in the Thousands not the just over 800 built by the 1941 Barbarossa
OTL in T34 Production from Kharkov Steam-Engine Plant
1941 1st Quarter 385 2nd 450 3rd 695 4th 55
1942 after move to Nizhnij Tagil
1942 1st Quarter 440 2nd 1380 3rd 1774 4th 2090
As you can see the Russians were Ramping up Production of there main Medium Tank Without interruption and not need to move, But not actually fighting this one Factory and there would be more by 1942 Producing the T34 as the Russian are still worried By end of 2nd Quarter 1942 you have 3500-4000 built by May 1942 from this Factory alone and Stalingrad Tractor Plant started Production Nov 1941

So for T34 with the other Factories involved you’re looking at in excess of 6000 T34 probably closer to 7000 probably few Hundred of the much Improved T34M

The Heavies
As of June 22nd, 1941, the Red Army possessed 693 KV tanks with the newer longer gun getting in production July 1941 my estimate for May 1942 1500-2000 KV1 still had major Mechanical problems in 1941, But crews and Army workshops getting another years experience with these.

Next time will go into Aircraft then Artillery think the Numbers of tanks are shocking wait till you see the difference in the Russian Gun Parks.

Now falling asleep at Keyboard will add more tomorrow.
 
Blair,

I am sorry but I am going to have to buck the trend here.

I have been disappointed by this thread (and if I am honest the latter half of the Manstein in Africa thread).

I am afraid you have "Jumped the Shark" and strayed heavily into Manstein/Rommel/Nazi-wank territory.

You have actually made things too easy for Rommel and Manstein by so heavily stacking the odds in their favour at each turn.

I will of course keep reading in the hope that you are able to turn this around.

Cheers

S396


Given the inherant weakness of the British in the Med in early 1941 Manstein's success with the North African theater with 4 divisions wasn't a huge strech with the necessary air support (this level of committment was supported by Goring and Raeder in otl)

Full moon was a pyriac victory with the german paratroopers getting gutted in a similiar fashion to crete

And this idea to dispatch the naval task force has a high chance of being a complete disaster for the germans now that the germans are going to be facing hms formidable and hermes

the campaign in the middle east is likely to be successful due to the very small numbers of british troops there however i imagine it will be extremely slow due to the nature of the terrain and the distances involved

there were only two major pods that set this off
hitler supporting raeder/goring's idea of dispatching powerful air forces to africa

and integration of the axis army (manstein had a successful history of doing this in otl with the romanians ie crimea they performed well under his command) Manstein was a big proponent of this and having him bring Hitler on board with this was critical to the improved performance since the Italians were committing most of the ground troops to the theater. the l-3 75 is a standard german adaptation of armor and anti tank gun improvised meshing
 
(note in my last update I accidently said the British task force was eagle and formidable (this was a typo it was hermes instead of eagle)

The Brinkmann meatgrinder! (Chapter 8)

Aboard the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugene, Central Atlantic, August 1941

Helmuth Brinkmann smiled and breathed a sigh of relief that his long and dangerous mission was nearly at its end. KMS Adirmal Scheer, Lutzow, Emden and their surviving destroyer had arrived to relieve the main Vulture task force which to date had now sunk nearly 100 merchantmen. Ciliax had ordered the group to maintain station together for a few days and then for the Vultures to head back to St. Nazaire.

Meanwhile the major reserve units of the home fleet had finally sallied out of port hell bent on smashing Raeder's raiders. High speed and erratic course changes had prevented most of the tasked U-boats from lining up any clear shots on the task force. One destroyer was lost and a cruiser damaged but the anti sub sweeps were successful sinking 3 boats.

Kapitänleutnant Herbert Wohlfarth aboard U-556 did however find a way via sheer cunning and determination to penetrate the anti sub screens and had a close call with a low flying swordfish biplane armed with a depth charge. He found himself inside the area of the home fleet capital ships and fired 4 torpedos which struck HMS Hermes in quick succession and ripped her guts out. She broke apart quickly and the gallant old carrier slipped into the icy atlantic. Wohlfarth desperately tried to leave the area but vengeful British destroyers swooped on him and depth charged his fragile vessle. After a pair of near misses his boat was forced to the surface where 3 angry British destroyers smothered her with shellfire and a torpedo was flung the sub's way which struck the conning tower from unmissable close range and blew her up with all hands lost

wohlfarth1.jpg

U-556's commander sank HMS Hermes but didn't live to record the kill

The following morning Brinkmann ordered Arado's airborne to look for victims or warships. HMS Formidable had much the same idea as a pair of her swordfish, doubling as scouts salleyed looking for the Vulture taskforce. Both side's aircraft benefitted from beautiful clear late summer weather and found each other at less than 125 km's distance!

The Germans had practiced for this for weeks prior to their departure and all AA guns were made ready for the strike they knew would be comming. The distance and angle of approach made it highly unlikely that the Germans would be able to outrun the British and Raeder's orders to run from battle just never felt right to Ciliax.

Formidable's captain under Tovey's orders sent out a maximum strike of 27 swordfish torpedo bombers with 6 fulmar fighters as escort. He ordered maximum speed for the home fleet to intercept the German task force.

Ciliax based on reports from his Arado aircrewt knew the size and scale of the force he was up against. Scharnhorst with the most modern radar set was placed in the lead of the taskforce as they set a south east course for St. Nazair at slightly less than maximum speed. The British fleet was likely to intercept several hours before dusk and that was exactly how Ciliax wanted the encounter to go.

Just before noon Scharnhorst detected 30+ indians (German term for inbound enemy aircraft). General quarters and later air defense battlestations were called for amongst the German warships making 22 knots. The catapults of the German capital ships and cruisers made themselves busy launching every servicable Arado aircraft until their were 16 of them circling the fleet ready to lay down their lives to protect the warships. Brinkmann wished to god that Goring would have let him have the ramp launched 109's or 110's because he could see the incomming aircraft were those slow basterdly swordfish which had doomed Bismark.

The Arados and the Fleet air arm engaged in their death dance with the German pilots quickly engaging the Fulmars to distract them from their critical escort mission. 7 of the underperforming German aircraft went down but they were able to take 4 fulmars with them and damage the other two so much that they had to turn back. The remaining 9 arados had a field day amongst the 27 frightened swordfish who began their customary ultra low torpedo runs. 15 of them went down in flames as the arados pulled away to the let the AA guns of the fleet open up on the survivors. Their previous success against the isolated Bismark wasn't to be repeated as they found themselves facing the dozens of barrels of the entire German fleet. Brinkmann's relentless training paid off as the swordfish were plucked from the sky one by one. Only thee of the swordfish survived to launch their fish of which only one struck home on the allready damaged KMS Emden. This shot reduced her top speed to 18 knots as several hundreds of gallons of seawater flooded her compartments and the pumps were started up.

emden12.jpg

Emden was damaged whilst defending herself against British aircraft

The air battle won Ciliax slowed down so Emden could conduct the most dire of repairs and so that the arados could be picked up, refueled and rearmed. The Home fleet was again detected by Scharnhorst a few hours later (Formidable had steamed away not wanting to be anywhere near the upcomming surface engagement) Lookouts from Walrus spotting aircraft and from relaunched Arados reported the fleets at 40kms and closing fast

Spotting was out of the question for the respective fleets as their aircraft became embroiled in an inconclusive duel and the fleets turned parallel for a broadside to broadside action.

Scharnhorst opened fire first using her excellent optics and fire control taking aim at what was tentatively identified as HMS Prince of Whales. Within a couple of minutes every major ship was unloosing full broadsides not seen since Jutland.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were the first to stop bringing up huge spouts of water. They struck Prince of Whales from less than 20 kilometers and closing. Prince of Whales was still a pair of aft secondary guns from damage she had received during Operation Full Moon. The German battlecruiser struck her on their 6th salvo with the spotting aircraft area destroyed and a large fire started. A plunging shell from Scharnhorst also penetrated a boiler room reducing the flagship's speed.

Tirpitz showed herself to be the finest and most dangerous warship afloat as her massive 15 inch guns quickly found the mark on Malaya whose older fire control systems had a hard time keeping up. By Tirpitz third salvo Malaya was bracketed and started taking hits. A hit just below the waterline started a dangerous leak which required rapid counter flood to stop the ship from developing a potentially dangerous list and reduced her top speed to 15 knots.

Admiral Tovey having gotten the worst of the intial exchange ordered his two cruisers and eleven destroyers on a torpedo attack against the German fleet. Ciliax tasked Scheer, Lutzow, Hipper and Prinz Eugene to prevent exactly this sort of manuever and the mighty German cruisers oppened up with 8 and 11 inch guns on the British light forces which lacked the range in their own weapons to reply. HMS Sheffield was hit repeatedly and broke her back. HMS Suffolk was hit by Prinz Eugene nearly a dozen times and coasted to a stop as the fires became uncontrollable. As the range closed the Brinkmann meatgrinder reached full speed (Brinkmann being given control of this part of the task force) as even the secondary armaments of the German cruisers lashed out at the British destroyers inflicting hit after hit. 4 of the gallant British vessles managed to draw Emden and one of the German destroyers out of position (at this point they only had three) and smothered them with shells and torpedoes and sent them to the bottom. Hipper and Eugene answered their frantic calls for help and pounded the destroyers with 8 inch shells from unmissable close range. Each hit was destructive and deadly with the sea between the two light forces becomming chocked with reckage oil and blood.

Only two of the brave destroyers managed to return to the battleships who were engaged in a death duel with the German capital ships. Tovey found that Duke of York was suffering from problems due to her incomplete construction as two of her guns had broken down with pressure failures and reduced her effectiveness. It was not to be a one sided battle though.

Prince of Whales while slowed and burning pumped 14 inch shells at Gneisenau with untold ferocity smashing her rear turret and starting dangerous fires. The victorious German cruisers then returned and tried to shield their consort. Eugene again showed herself to be well commanded and her gunnery officers well schooled as she fired 5 250 pound shells into Prince of Whales which blew up another secondary battery position and started more fires. The pair of German surviving destroyers darted in and pumped torpedoes into Prince of Whales leaving her dead in the water and starting to list. Tovey exacted his pound of flesh as his remaining secondary batteries obliterated the German destroyers in a hail of fire and he continued to send shells at Gneisenau until his barrels glowed white and their paint was all gone. Gneisenau suffered a catastrophic explosion as her stern was blown clear of the rest of the ship and both portions sank with total loss of life.

Prince of Whales crew whilst proud of their sinking of the German battlecruiser was stuck with the impossible task of trying to control the growing leaks and fires. The continued hits from Hipper, Scheer and Eugene started new fires that merged with those that were allready out of control until the whole ship was ablaze from bow to stern. Her magazines had to be flooded to prevent a catastrophic explosion. Tovey reluctantly ordered the ship to be abandoned but he was far too late and the final salvo from Scheer hit right near the waterline that was allready gaping from the torpedoes and sank the Prince of Whales.

Whilst this was going on Malaya and Tirpitz continued their duel with each scoring hits although Tirpitz's were more frequent and lethal. Malaya scored a lucky hit that shattered Tirpitz's bridge and killed Ciliax sending the ship temporarily out of control. Scharnhort redirected her guns at Malaya blowing up her aft turret with a pair of plunging 11 inch shells. Malaya struck back and her captain ordered the struggling Duke of York to open fire with all weapons on Scharnhorst. Scharnhorst quickly found her armor insuffecient as 14 and 15 inch shells smothered her in smoke and fire and she was forced to retire with over 250 casaulties and a leak in the bow.

With Ciliax dead Brinkmann flat out took over the fleet and ordered all weapons to open up on Malaya. Eugene was the first to score hits including an armor piercing round that smashed the rudder of Malaya. The old warhorse gave all her soul to the battle scoring damaging hits on Lutzow and Hipper but whilst this outnumbered battle went on Tirpitz regained her composure as her executive officer took over and reopened fire with his uncompromised 15 inch guns. Malaya shuttered under their impact as Brinkmann watched via his spotting glasses as the crew of Tirpitz worked themselves into a frenzy over the loss of the Admiral and sustained a high rate of fire. Hit over 40 time Malaya couldn't take anymore and she gave way to the deep.

When Malaya's rudder was damaged and the scale of the disaster that Brinkmann's meatgrinder was causing and knowing two of his guns were allready out of action her captain ordered Duke of York and the pair of surviving destroyers to break contact and head for home.

Brinkmann tired, and with a gaping wound in his elbow from a shell splinter that had struck Eugene with a near miss (the lucky ship's only damage and Brinkmann was the only casualty) refused to order pursuit as nearly his entire fleet was damaged and desperately needed to make port in St. Nazair over 500 miles away. Via enigma 4a he reported his victory to GrossAdmiral Raeder and begged for a large fighter escort to cover the ships and for tugs and emergancy repair crews and medical teams to be standing by.

to be continued

your thoughts

I am sorry for the delay between posts as you can imagine Der Manstein Kommt is taking up most of my reasearch but I had been working on this LARGE chapter for several weeks and didn't want to just hang this story up
 
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Very nice.

I am kind of surprised by the very good performance of the German Arados, but the rest of the battle is very well written. I expected the the Tirpitz to have performed a bit better against these older or non-mature battleships, but I guess that would be way too much german wank.
 
Very nice.

I am kind of surprised by the very good performance of the German Arados, but the rest of the battle is very well written. I expected the the Tirpitz to have performed a bit better against these older or non-mature battleships, but I guess that would be way too much german wank.

The Arado A-3/4 had roughly equivilent performance to the fairy fulmar (i gave the fulmars a slightly better kill ratio) and it had much better performance than the swordfish and a decent armament to shoot them down.

I tried to keep the losses realistic and respectable

tally:
British: Heremes lost to submarine, Prince of Whales sunk by gunfire with pocket battleship Admiral Scheer delivering the death blow, Malaya sunk by gunfire with Tirpitz delivering death blow, 2 cruisers sunk, 9 destroyers sunk, Duke of York, undamaged by hostile fire but due to the haste of her going to sea two of her guns failed to operate and the others were questionable, a pair of destroyers undamaged
Germans: Gneisenau sunk by Prince of Whales, Scharnhorst 250 crew dead, controllable leaks, Tirpitz bridge and chartrooms shattered 1 secondary battery position and 2 aa positions destroyed and 149 dead including Admiral Ciliax, Admiral Scheer one serious hit the bow reducing speed and 90 dead, Lutzow several non critcal hits from Malaya's secondary armament 27 dead, Hipper two hits from Duke of York one forward turret out of action and 40 dead, Emden sunk by british destroyers, three German destroyers sunk.... Eugene was the only one to get away without damage and Brinkmann was struck by a splinter from a near miss
 
Very good chapter! In TTL AH fans will forever ponder the question, how the battle would have gone if Hermes hadn't been sunk before it started ;)
But with only one carrierload of planes against the entire german fleet (thaqt finally uses its floatplanes in combat), I think the outcome of the air attack is very plausible.
The engagement between the ships is very well written too, and again seems plausible.
I like it that you show the strenghts and weaknesses of both sides, so not wanking either one.
 
Very good chapter! In TTL AH fans will forever ponder the question, how the battle would have gone if Hermes hadn't been sunk before it started ;)
But with only one carrierload of planes against the entire german fleet (thaqt finally uses its floatplanes in combat), I think the outcome of the air attack is very plausible.
The engagement between the ships is very well written too, and again seems plausible.
I like it that you show the strenghts and weaknesses of both sides, so not wanking either one.

It tied in nicely with Manstein in Africa I hope... having the British lose so many battleships to the Regia Aeronautica and the Luftwaffe in operation Hummel, Full Moon and Midnight allowed the German fleet such as it was to have a reasonable chance against what was left of the home fleet... I haven't coined a name for the battle yet and am open to suggestions, Brinkmann meatgrinder will not stick
 
Well written. Not to be pedantic, but it is Prince of WALES, not Whales. Although your word might be ironically applicalbe to the current holder of this august title.:)
 
Well written. Not to be pedantic, but it is Prince of WALES, not Whales. Although your word might be ironically applicalbe to the current holder of this august title.:)

I also Americanized Prinz Eugen by calling her Eugene I am an equal oportunity linguistic butcher... glad you are enjoying
 
Again my apologies for the delay between updates... have been wrapped up in other projects but this is definently going to be an ongoing tl

All the pagentry (Chapter 9)

St. Nazaire France September 1941

Brinkmann's exausted fleet pulled into the great harbor after they met up with tug's and hospital boats a few miles out. Greatful to unload his hundreds of wounded, Brinkmann was stunned when he saw what must have been the honor bands of nearly the entire Kriegsmarine waiting for him at the dockyards proudly playing Deuchsland uber alles and other patriotic German songs.

Raeder and Hitler where there and a media spectacle had been arranged by Goebbles. His propaganda machine had referred to their victory at sea as the "Brinkmann Meatginder" and he was being lionized in the press. The papers proudly stated that this was the German Trafalger and that the Royal Navy had been decisively broken. Brinkmann didn't think so and felt himself lucky that he only encountered one small carrier otherwise his entire force would have been wiped out.

hitler46.jpg

Raeder, Hitler and the brass ready to give medals to the triumphant sailors of the vulture task force

Brinkmann was promoted and decorated as where many of the gunnery and medical officers of the surviving ships who had performed so well. A special medal was made for the Arado fliers called the vulture medal which featured an Arado 196 flying over KMS Tirpitz.

After having his elbow wound well tended to the fuhrer called on him to discuss his great victory:

Hitler: I am most proud of you and your boys Brinkmann. This along with our drive through Palestine and Iraq will finish off Britain as a warmaking power
Brinkmann: Thank you my fuhrer
Hitler: Don't worry about the ships I have brought in every available repair crew and the dry docks here are sufficient for your ships. The salvage officer says he needs 8 weeks and then your ships will be in top shape and the crews can start reforming
Brinkmann: I am glad the boats got back to fight another day
Hitler: Indeed, and when they go back out you will be the task force commander
Brinkmann: I am honored my fuhrer
Hitler: Now as task force commander, I want you to tell me what you need to make your next sortie more effective and destructive
Binkmann: Prior to the vulture sortie I had requested that collapseable ramps be set up on the cruisers and battleships so that we could launch ME-109's or ME-110's for fleet defense like the British Hurricat system.
Hitler: That sounds like a clever idea... what did Grossadmiral Raeder say?
Brinkmann: He supported me however the Reichsmarshal did not approve and refused to release the aircraft. I feel if I had this system Emden and our destroyers, and Gneisenau would still be with us.
Hitler: I'll talk to the Reichsmarshal about that. I promise you will have the planes in place on your next sortie
Brinkmann: Those planes are a stopgap my fuhrer... at best they can protect us from recon aircraft and a small strike. What the Kriegsmarine truly and undoubtedly needs is its own organic air support
Hitler: Graf Zepplin?
Brinkmann: If I had a carrier in that battle I would have sunk the entire British force and I think they would allready be at the negotiating table
Hitler: We have been slow developing and getting her ready... in fact with our upcomming conflict with Russia I was considering postponing her construction
Brinkmann: This would be a great folly my fuhrer. With the major losses we have inflicted in the Mediterranian theater and the Vulture sortie we stand on the verge of Britain's destruction. Our next sortie must include the ramp planes and Graf Zepplin... we will not be so lucky again. THIS IS OUR DECISIVE CHANCE!
Hitler: I'll make some inquiries about how rapidly she can be completed. There has allready been a group of pilots that has done some training in this area although it will likely push back our next sortie into the new year
Brinkmann: It would be well worth the delay my fuhrer plus my crews need additional time for training since we are now going to have a large number of replacements

03_graf_zeppelin.jpg

Graf Zeppelin would be a powerful addition to the German fleet on its next sortie. Brinkmann nearly demanded her completion

A crash program was immediately started to get the ship into working condition... construction had been proceeding at a slow pace for the last year. Engineers put in three shifts a day prepping her and getting her ready for serious trials. The air crew training started up again on Hitler's direct order. The ME-109T and JU-87R went to work making simulating carrier landings and strikes. Again the ME-109's landing gear quickly proved itself to be a problem due to its narrowness and weakness. Hitler was devastated when Germany's famed test pilot Hanna Reisch died in a training accident piloting an ME-109T when its undercarriage collapsed. Hitler went to Goring demanding an alternative since the aircraft was obviously unsatisfactory. Goring called on Kurt Tank of Focke Wolf who had designed the FW-190 which was proving to be an excellent aircraft in Africa.

Me109a2.jpg

Landing gear malfunctions made the ME-109 unattractive for carrier work

Goring asked Tank if it was possible to navalize his FW-190 fighter. Tank replied the engineering wouldn't take long since the fighter was in production and most of the necessary additions (arrestor spools and the like) had allready been developed for the ME-109 and could be copied over. Tank was also smart enough to mention that due to the layout, approach angle, visability, and landing gear construction and strength that his bird was well suited for naval operations.

fw190_collage.jpg

The FW 190 proved itself to be a superior dogfighter and its rugged construction made it well suited to naval operations with its only major drawback being its range (which even still was superior to the ME-109T)

to be continued...


your thoughts?
 
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burmafrd

Banned
FW 190 was a real nasty bird. after the war Chuck Yeager spent time flying it and said that with high grade aviation fuel it fully equaled the P-51 in performance. We were lucky that due to oil problems the Luftwaffer never had real high grade octane gasoline.
 
FW 190 was a real nasty bird. after the war Chuck Yeager spent time flying it and said that with high grade aviation fuel it fully equaled the P-51 in performance. We were lucky that due to oil problems the Luftwaffer never had real high grade octane gasoline.

Galland said it was a superior machine as well... but he claims he never liked flying it because the cockpit didn't lend it self to smoking his cigars in mid flight
 
Great to see you back on this topic! (Pitty about the other project though...)

Concerning last update: Again, very entertaining. And in my opinion, the situation you've developed here might be one, where a german carrier could actually make sense. Against the RN in their prime, it would be a waste of resources to send the Graf Zeppelin out. With many ships sunk or severly damaged - and superior fighters on the german carrier - the german surface fleet will now be as dangerous to Britain as the U-boats.
But could this lead to an earlier entry of the US? Then again, the GZ would be scrap metal quite soon...
Please go on :D
 
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