ROME DESTROYED IN 450 BC

[G.Bone]

Good installment although a bit chaotic with all the diverse powers going at each other's throats. When will you update the Hittite and the Incan [I can't spell their name for each other] TL?

 

[Tom_B]

I enjoy this TL and would like to see it continued.

 

[robertp6165]

Good installment although a bit chaotic with all the diverse powers going at each other's throats. When will you update the Hittite and the Incan [I can't spell their name for each other] TL?

The decades after Alexander's death were a chaotic time in OTL, too. As for the Hittites and Tawantinsuya, I am not sure yet. I may try to finish out the rest of the century on this timeline before I return to the others.

 

[robertp6165]

I enjoy this TL and would like to see it continued.

Thank you. Rest assured, it will be continued.

 

[Historico]

Great Installment Robert, I was not dissapointed(Except for it being in an Fifty year Segment) But anyways it's all good. Yeah, I'ts good to see some Etruscan Expansion(Sicily and Syracuse next?). Epirus is starting to get on my nerves(I hope the Etruscans take out in the next 50 years, and taking Illyria along the way). I'm all for going a head and nocking this century out before embarking on the Hittite and Tawantisuya TL's. I got some more questions for ya.



1. Galatia....Is is an Monarchy or Republic of Gauls? I do see them expanding in the next century or so in to the Black Sea Territories. With an powerful State of Gauls in the east, maybe is enough to get the celts in Gaul to get their act together.

2. Were the Etruscans big on Science, Mathmatics, Astronomy or any other "Greek Sciences"?

3. I don't know about this Cold War between Carthage and Etruia...Could we an possible continuation ofbalance of Power for both Etruscan and Punic influences in the Western Medeterranien without the destruction of either power? We might need an strong Third Buffer state do that.

4. What's going on in East Italy right now...Why didn't the Etruscans just annex or allow them to come into the Leauge?

5. I love the idea of creating Ptolemeia and it being OTL's Alexandria. But In TTL we will see an more Integrated policy between the Egyptian Natives and the Greeks than in OTL? Also What's going on in Kush and Axum.

6. Will Yehud adopt more of an Hellenistic view because of control by the Ptolomies? Will the Maccebees even revolt in this TL, or maybe even be accepted into the Achaen Leauge? Also what's going on with the Nabateans.

7. Also what's Going on in Dacia at this Point and has it had an chance to become an real threat to the Etruscans in this Timeline?

 

[robertp6165]

I got some more questions for ya.

1. Galatia....Is is an Monarchy or Republic of Gauls?

The state of Galatia is based on the OTL state of Galatia which arose in central Anatolia (in the OTL, the Celts were transported over by a Greek king who wanted them to fight on his side in a war with another Greek successor state. In the ATL, nobody offered to transport them over to Anatolia, so they settled in Thrace). Their governmental system would be similar to OTL Galatia's (details from here), described below.

Faithful to the Celtic love of triads, the Galatians sorted themselves out into three main parts. The central part of Galatia belonged to a tribe known as the Tectosages, who established a capitol at Ancyra (Celtic “anchor”), today the Turkish capitol of Ankara. Westward lay the lands of the Tolistbobolii, with their main town at Pressinus, and to the East were the Trocmi whose main town was Tavium.

Like other Celts, the Galatians shied away from establishing a strong central government. Instead each of the three tribes sent four tetarachs and 100 senators to a grand national council held annually at Drynemeton, near Ancyra.

So I guess you can say they are a form of republic.

I do see them expanding in the next century or so in to the Black Sea Territories. With an powerful State of Gauls in the east, maybe is enough to get the celts in Gaul to get their act together.

Expansion northeastward could possibly happen. They are pretty far away from Gaul, so whether they will have any direct influence there is much less certain.

2. Were the Etruscans big on Science, Mathmatics, Astronomy or any other "Greek Sciences"?

They were avid copiers of Greek culture generally, so I would assume so. But since we have very little in the way of Etruscan literature left to us...practically nothing, in fact...it is hard to say for sure.

3. I don't know about this Cold War between Carthage and Etruia...Could we an possible continuation ofbalance of Power for both Etruscan and Punic influences in the Western Medeterranien without the destruction of either power? We might need an strong Third Buffer state do that.

That is the problem. There is effectively no buffer between them anymore, now that the Greeks have been basically removed from the chessboard of the eastern Mediterranean. Now the Etruscans and Carthage can look at each other dispassionately and see each other as the natural trade and military rivals they are.

4. What's going on in East Italy right now...Why didn't the Etruscans just annex or allow them to come into the Leauge?

It's occupied by semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes (the Marsi and others). The Etruscans are trading with them and have good relations with them, but don't consider them ready for membership in the League yet.

5. I love the idea of creating Ptolemeia and it being OTL's Alexandria. But In TTL we will see an more Integrated policy between the Egyptian Natives and the Greeks than in OTL?

Given that the Ptolemaic Dynasty is now established on the throne as per OTL, its unlikely. But it could happen.

Also What's going on in Kush and Axum.

Axum is just getting started, the city having been founded about 300 BC. Kush is in a seriously declining state and poses no real threat to the powers further north...nor does it present a prize worth conquering.

6. Will Yehud adopt more of an Hellenistic view because of control by the Ptolomies? Will the Maccebees even revolt in this TL?

Basically, a large segment of the population will want to adopt Hellenistic ways, but this will thoroughly piss off the rest of the population, especially the powerful religious hierarchy. Something like the Maccabean Revolt is probably in the works, as tensions continue to build.

or maybe even be accepted into the Achaen Leauge?

Unlikely.

Also what's going on with the Nabateans.

Probably similar to OTL. They would have moved into the region south and east of the Dead Sea about 350 BC and established their capital at Petra. They are caravan traders who grow rich as middlemen in the frankincense and myrrh trades.

7. Also what's Going on in Dacia at this Point and has it had an chance to become an real threat to the Etruscans in this Timeline?

Dacia was located in what is now Romania. They are nowhere near the Etruscans.

 

[Historico]

They were avid copiers of Greek culture generally, so I would assume so. But since we have very little in the way of Etruscan literature left to us...practically nothing, in fact...it is hard to say for sure.

That being said will there be any attempt made by the Etruscan Leauge of setting up it's own libary(Maybe in Veii) to keep ahold of it's sacred records?

It's occupied by semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes (the Marsi and others). The Etruscans are trading with them and have good relations with them, but don't consider them ready for membership in the League yet.

So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic

Basically, a large segment of the population will want to adopt Hellenistic ways, but this will thoroughly piss off the rest of the population, especially the powerful religious hierarchy. Something like the Maccabean Revolt is probably in the works, as tensions continue to build.

I was trying to say that once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?

Dacia was located in what is now Romania. They are nowhere near the Etruscans.

What I mean was, Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

1. Go ahead and nock this century out, before deciding to start on the other TL's.

2. Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

3. I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

 

[Historico]

What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

 

[Historico]

Here are some more questions robert...

1.So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic






2. Once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?


3. Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

4. 0Go ahead and nock this century out, before deciding to start on the other TL's.

5 Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

6. I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

7. What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

 

[Historico]

I found some rather Interesting Info on the Etruscan in terms of Science

The Etruscans had a deep knowledge of Hydrology and hydraulics, a knowledge which they put to good use in their many land drainage schemes. The lower lying portions of Rome such as the area between the Capitol and Velia was formerly marshland. Settlement of the low-lying ground would never have been a possibility without the hydraulic engineering skills of the Etruscans.This took place around 625 BCE when, according to archaeological evidence a network of drainage channels was dug through the marshy ground, and at the same time, the stream that separated the two hills of the Capitoline and Palatine was regulated, its embankments were strengthened, and it was finally covered over.

That remarkable structure, the Cloacha Maxima, which is still functioning today is the outlet of an underground canal which runs for some six hundred yards from the Forum and keeps it dry by collecting the water that flows down the Quirinal and Viminal. Pliny the Elder in his "Natural History" talks of "the public sewers, a work more stupendous that any; as mountains had to be pierced for their construction……Navigation had to be carried out beneath Rome….It is said that Tarquinius made these sewers of dimensions sufficiently large to admit of a wagon laden with hay passing along them"

Nowadays, the sewer systems of Rome are taken for granted.


é

Knowledge of Geology

At Viterbo, where the remains of Etruscan Surina lie, the underlying rock is perforated by innumerable channels, devised to drain the ground. Their construction shows that the builders had an incredibly detailed knowledge of the local geology. Below the topsoil lie volcanic formations of tufa, and beneath that again, a deeply fissured layer. A modern report reads " The deep layer is saturated with moisture from the subterranean outflow of the crater lakes. The topsoil absorbs all the rainwater. The surplus from the two layers passes into the middle layer from which it cannot evaporate and which remains permanently wet. The land was only dry and healthy as long as water was removed from this absorbent layer of Tufa". Investigation has shown that it was precisely through this layer that the Etruscans drove their cuniculi, as the drainage tunnels are called.

This knowledge of hydraulic engineering was also put to good use in regulating river flows, in preventing the silting up of harbours, and in providing a complex system of reticulated water for public use. This has long since fallen into disuse, although traces of the pressurised water systems have been found in recent times.

Now would under the Influence of the Etruscan Leauge, the Science of Geology become more popular and studied in Ptolemiea? And Possibly there isn't an devasting Disastor on pompeii?

 

[robertp6165]

That being said will there be any attempt made by the Etruscan Leauge of setting up it's own libary(Maybe in Veii) to keep ahold of it's sacred records?

They might do that. But there might be a problem with long-term preservation. Most Etruscan records seem to have been written on wax tablets...which oddly enough were sometimes bound together into codices (i.e. books). This is one reason why so little survives today. The wax tablets are extraordinarily fragile and simply don't last.

Of course it would have been possible to import a more durable material, but that would be very expensive. And since the wax tablets work well enough for everyday use, the Etruscans might not see the need to invest large sums to purchase more durable writing material for archival storage.

So even if they do found a library, it might not last long enough to have an impact on the advance of science.

So why don't the Etruscans just simply conquer these semi-civilized Oscan-Umbrian tribes if they don't seem them fit enough to apply for membership to the Leauge. It would increase the cize of the Etruscan Military and give them more ports on the Adriatic.

The Etruscans aren't Romans. They aren't an extremely aggressive people. They prefer to integrate the surrounding peoples into their structure gradually, starting with trade first, then moving onto a military alliance, and finally membership in the League. They moved militarily against the Celts to the north because the Celts were a threat that needed to be eradicated. The Marsi and related tribes are friendly and are not a threat.

I was trying to say that once the heavilly Hellenized Population come of age why don't they just overthrow the Old Hierchy and establish something similar to an Greek Democracy in Yehud?

For the same reasons they didn't do so in OTL. The Hellenized portion of the population is a minority, mainly concentrated in the cities. The average Jew who lives in the countryside is not Hellenized and won't be.

What I mean was, Has the Kingdom of Dacia established itself as influential Power in the Balkans...Putting Pressure on Macedon and Galatia. I got some more Questions.

Not as of yet. They have been pretty badly beaten up by the Celts, during their migration southward.

2. Why hasn't the Etruscan's made any attempt or Massila itself made any attempt to apply for memebership in to the Leauge? It could serve as an possible Barrier to the invading Celts.

Massilia is itself under constant threat from the Celts. It is not in a position to serve as a barrier for the Etruscans. And the Massilians are Greeks, who the Etruscans consider to be trade rivals. They certainly don't want to expend any energy protecting Massilia.

I was thinking on wether or not the Carthaginains actually made contact with Brittany in OTL? and What would be the Punic Policies dealing with the Britons and how much would it differ from Rome?

I am assuming you mean "contact with Britain," not with "Brittany." Brittany did not exist at this time...it only came into existence during the 400s AD, when British Celts fled there from invading Scots, Picts, and Anglo-Saxons.

But yes, the Carthaginians have made contact with Britain, and are importing tin from there. They do not have any permanent settlements there, and likely will have none, at least for quite some time.

 

[robertp6165]

What about havinhg the Italiotes of Sicily rise to the occasion an provide an great Third Power in the Western Medeterraien? Maybe Magna Greecia could prove to be an great reawakener to the Classical Age?

The Carthaginians and Etruscans have gone to great pains to eliminate the Greeks as rivals in the Western Mediterranean. Why would they want to allow the Italian Greeks to rise as a great power? They just got done throwing out Pyrrhus of Epirus!

 

[robertp6165]

I found some rather Interesting Info on the Etruscan in terms of Science...Now would under the Influence of the Etruscan Leauge, the Science of Geology become more popular and studied in Ptolemiea?

It's possible.

And Possibly there isn't an devasting Disastor on pompeii?

Etruscan geological and engineering know-how is not going to prevent Mount Vesuvius from erupting. Pompeii is doomed.

 

[Nicole]

Etruscan geological and engineering know-how is not going to prevent Mount Vesuvius from erupting. Pompeii is doomed.

Pompeii won't even exist, as it's named after Pompey

 

[robertp6165]

Pompeii won't even exist, as it's named after Pompey

Actually, Pompeii was founded in the 6th century BC by the Oscans of Campania. It existed long, long before Pompey.

 

[Nicole]

Actually, Pompeii was founded in the 6th century BC by the Oscans of Campania. It existed long, long before Pompey.

Ah, really? Then I suppose my Latin teacher was wrong... Hm, but wikipedia does back you up....

 

[Historico]

They might do that. But there might be a problem with long-term preservation. Most Etruscan records seem to have been written on wax tablets...which oddly enough were sometimes bound together into codices (i.e. books). This is one reason why so little survives today. The wax tablets are extraordinarily fragile and simply don't last.

Of course it would have been possible to import a more durable material, but that would be very expensive. And since the wax tablets work well enough for everyday use, the Etruscans might not see the need to invest large sums to purchase more durable writing material for archival storage.

So even if they do found a library, it might not last long enough to have an impact on the advance of science.

True, But I guess It would be left to the Greeks in Ptolemeia...who would most likley ask for the Wax codics, so they can be copied onto Papyrus. But would the Etruscans let the Greeks see their Information.

The Etruscans aren't Romans. They aren't an extremely aggressive people. They prefer to integrate the surrounding peoples into their structure gradually, starting with trade first, then moving onto a military alliance, and finally membership in the League. They moved militarily against the Celts to the north because the Celts were a threat that needed to be eradicated. The Marsi and related tribes are friendly and are not a threat.

So, The Etruscans...Probably won't expand unless they decide in a time of war, that taking Territory is necessary?

For the same reasons they didn't do so in OTL. The Hellenized portion of the population is a minority, mainly concentrated in the cities. The average Jew who lives in the countryside is not Hellenized and won't be.

Well, I thought, since under the Ptolomies, more people became more Hellenized because of the loose Policy?

Not as of yet. They have been pretty badly beaten up by the Celts, during their migration southward.

Just don't forget about Dacia, It was an large amount of wealth for Rome in OTL, It will be a shame to see it washed down the drain.

Massilia is itself under constant threat from the Celts. It is not in a position to serve as a barrier for the Etruscans. And the Massilians are Greeks, who the Etruscans consider to be trade rivals. They certainly don't want to expend any energy protecting Massilia.

Well, Like I assume you meant...In a crisis, Massilla and other citites along eastern Iberia could be great target in time of war with Carthage. And What about Syracuse, who were primarly Greeks, and they turned it into an naval base. Etruscan Treatment of the Greeks can't be all that bad...So the Massilians might put in a plea for aid against the celts, while the Etruscans needing more men against Carthage...accepts?

I am assuming you mean "contact with Britain," not with "Brittany." Brittany did not exist at this time...it only came into existence during the 400s AD, when British Celts fled there from invading Scots, Picts, and Anglo-Saxons.

But yes, the Carthaginians have made contact with Britain, and are importing tin from there. They do not have any permanent settlements there, and likely will have none, at least for quite some time.

Well, My questions were, If the Carthaginians had any permeneant settlments in the British Isles and you answered it?

But where do you think in a time of need to evacute, the Carthaginans might go? To Britian? Iberia, West Africa?

 

[Historico]

The Carthaginians and Etruscans have gone to great pains to eliminate the Greeks as rivals in the Western Mediterranean. Why would they want to allow the Italian Greeks to rise as a great power? They just got done throwing out Pyrrhus of Epirus!

Well, It looks Indefinatley like the Punic Wars are still going to happen but will it play out like it did in OTL, I seriously doubt it? You know and Interesting twist might be the Hellenistic Empires takes sides and they still duke it out for control of the Medeterranien.

But Rob remember in a world without Rome, Carthago Supervivenda est!(Carthage ought to survive). I also have some more questions for you

1. Have the Etruscans returned back to their thasslocratic ways, and become an major Naval Power Again? Have the been finding colonies and where would be the most like way to go?(Carthage pretty much has the Pillars of Hercules on Lockdown)

2. Haven't the Ptolomies, heard the legends of Nubia's Wealth, and maybe they could tacke an weaker Kush and newborn Axum?

 

[robertp6165]

Well, It looks Indefinatley like the Punic Wars are still going to happen but will it play out like it did in OTL, I seriously doubt it?

I don't know if the Punic Wars are still going to be fought in the ATL. The Carthaginians and Etruscans are rivals, and they may end up sparring for control of Sicily, now that the Etruscans have a foothold there. But neither the Etruscans or the Carthaginians are much interested in conquest for conquest's sake, unlike the Romans. So I seriously doubt either will contemplate a war of annihilation against the other.

You know and Interesting twist might be the Hellenistic Empires takes sides and they still duke it out for control of the Medeterranien.

That's a possibility too.

But Rob remember in a world without Rome, Carthago Supervivenda est!(Carthage ought to survive).

I agree. That is rather the point of the timeline...to see how the various civilizations that Rome destroyed might have developed if they had not been destroyed by Rome.

1. Have the Etruscans returned back to their thasslocratic ways, and become an major Naval Power Again?

Yes, which is one source of conflict between the Etruscans and Carthage.

Have the been finding colonies and where would be the most like way to go?(Carthage pretty much has the Pillars of Hercules on Lockdown)

They have been too busy defending themselves in Italy to worry about colonies, at least up to this point. But if they do decide to colonize, it will be a further source of conflict between them and Carthage.

Haven't the Ptolomies, heard the legends of Nubia's Wealth, and maybe they could tacke an weaker Kush and newborn Axum?

No more reason for that to occur in the ATL than it did in OTL. Besides, Nubia's wealth was pretty much played out by this time. The Nubian gold mines mostly ran dry in the final years of the New Kingdom of Egypt. Indeed, that was one major reason for the final collapse of the New Kingdom. They ran out of gold when the Nubian mines ran dry.

 

[robertp6165]

True, But I guess It would be left to the Greeks in Ptolemeia...who would most likley ask for the Wax codics, so they can be copied onto Papyrus. But would the Etruscans let the Greeks see their Information.

I don't think the Etruscans themselves are going to be a major contributor to scientific advancement. But the fact that they destroyed Rome should allow the Hellenistic civilization of the east to survive longer, which could have all kinds of impacts on the advancement of science...eventually.

So, The Etruscans...Probably won't expand unless they decide in a time of war, that taking Territory is necessary?

Basically correct.

Well, I thought, since under the Ptolomies, more people became more Hellenized because of the loose Policy?

It will still tend to be concentrated in the cities, where the Greeks will be able to exert cultural influence. In the countryside...where the majority of people live...Greek influence will be practically nil.

Just don't forget about Dacia, It was an large amount of wealth for Rome in OTL, It will be a shame to see it washed down the drain.

Nothing has happened in this timeline so far to derail the rise of Dacia.

Well, Like I assume you meant...In a crisis, Massilla and other citites along eastern Iberia could be great target in time of war with Carthage. And What about Syracuse, who were primarly Greeks, and they turned it into an naval base. Etruscan Treatment of the Greeks can't be all that bad...So the Massilians might put in a plea for aid against the celts, while the Etruscans needing more men against Carthage...accepts?

Assuming the Etruscan rule in Syracuse is successful, this could be a possibility.

But where do you think in a time of need to evacute, the Carthaginans might go? To Britian? Iberia, West Africa?

That assumes they are going to need to evacuate, which is by no means certain. I would think Iberia the most likely destination, in the event something like that occurred. Or Sicily.