Romans refuse to execute Jesus

[AltHistoryNerd]

Jesus is exiled to Britannia and has his skin branded with the words "Do not allow this man to board any seaworthy vessel" in Latin. In effect, he's put on the ancient equivalent of a no fly list. He starts up a new following in Britannia with some of the same teachings. The Israelite church, the one that was left behind by Jesus develops a more conservative philosophy. There's also one key addition to the new, splintered Christian religion:

A new age will come when they discover their lost Lord.

The more liberal British church becomes an underground phenomenon for a few centuries. They adopt a similar new key addition to their religion.

They believe a new age will come when they finally meet up with their lost brethren in Israel.

The two religions eventually meet up after the fall of the western Roman Empire, ushering "the new age". The two churches unite and conquer what used to be Western Rome. They become a powerful force and they start evangelizing all over the world via the sword and via missionaries. I

 

[PBJ]

He starts up a new following in Britannia with some of the same teachings.

How? He most likely spoke Aramaic, and potentially Hebrew as well, since there was still native Hebrew-speakers in rural Judea up until the 2nd century, and was still used in religious texts in Jewish religious circles. It's highly unlikely that he spoke Latin or Greek, being the son of a carpenter, and not of the more upper-class Sadducees, who were known for that sort of thing.

So without the knowledge of the local language, I sincerely doubt any "Jesus is exiled to ________ and begins to preach" narratives, since if there's no one who can understand your message, there's no one to believe it. In all honesty, he'd probably die homeless and starving.

 

[AltHistoryNerd]

He's either given some sort of Rosetta stone type object by his followers on the way to Britannia so he could learn basic Latin and spread the message there or he befriends a Jewish trader in Britannia who is fluent in Latin. He ends up converting the trader. The trader then teaches Jesus Latin.

 

[Napoleonrules]

Do you have a source for the fastest growing thing and the Alexandria thing?

I remember reading somewhere that Christianity spread among Hellenized Jewish populations that had adopted Greek thought, not gentile converts to Judaism.

Not to be rude, and I mean this in the nicest way- Google exists. I was able to find the information that way. I'm just too busy to re-look up the information and I'm not Wikipedia. I apologize.

 

[aktarian]

How? He most likely spoke Aramaic, and potentially Hebrew as well, since there was still native Hebrew-speakers in rural Judea up until the 2nd century, and was still used in religious texts in Jewish religious circles. It's highly unlikely that he spoke Latin or Greek, being the son of a carpenter, and not of the more upper-class Sadducees, who were known for that sort of thing.

So without the knowledge of the local language, I sincerely doubt any "Jesus is exiled to ________ and begins to preach" narratives, since if there's no one who can understand your message, there's no one to believe it. In all honesty, he'd probably die homeless and starving.

Couldn't one of his Latin speaking disciples teach him?

 

[PBJ]

Couldn't one of his Latin speaking disciples teach him?

It would be better for him to learn Greek, as it was the lingua franca of the Empire, whereas Latin was mainly reserved for administrators and military men outside of Italy. If you're really wanting for Jesus to learn Latin, the only disciple I could think of that had even a passing understanding of Latin would be Paul, as his family were Roman citizens. We can safely assume he spoke passable Latin and potentially Greek as well, but there's no way to confirm if he could write it. It's doubtful that any of the other apostles spoke either, given that they were fishermen, etc.

If you were somehow able to have Jesus and his disciples exiled collectively, I could see him having enough time to spend with them to be taught enough Greek to preach openly without a translator, and in a larger group they could be significantly more effective than just a single man. Otherwise he'll probably be taken away with little-to-no warning following his sentencing, so I doubt he'd have time to learn a new language or two.

 

[Umbral]

It would be better for him to learn Greek, as it was the lingua franca of the Empire, whereas Latin was mainly reserved for administrators and military men outside of Italy. If you're really wanting for Jesus to learn Latin, the only disciple I could think of that had even a passing understanding of Latin would be Paul, as his family were Roman citizens. We can safely assume he spoke passable Latin and potentially Greek as well, but there's no way to confirm if he could write it. It's doubtful that any of the other apostles spoke either, given that they were fishermen, etc.

If you were somehow able to have Jesus and his disciples exiled collectively, I could see him having enough time to spend with them to be taught enough Greek to preach openly without a translator, and in a larger group they could be significantly more effective than just a single man. Otherwise he'll probably be taken away with little-to-no warning following his sentencing, so I doubt he'd have time to learn a new language or two.

Paul wasn't even converted until after Jesus execution. And while he himself tried to present himself as not only a disciple but The Disciple, the actual disciple disagreed strenuously. The animosity between Paul and the disciples was vast.

And his version of Jesus was very different from the people who had actually met him. I doubt he would have become a Christian in a TL where Jesus survives.

 

[fi11222]

Paul wasn't even converted until after Jesus execution. And while he himself tried to present himself as not only a disciple but The Disciple, the actual disciple disagreed strenuously. The animosity between Paul and the disciples was vast.

Maybe, but eventually he won. Isn't the winner always right from an evolutionary standpoint?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

How? He most likely spoke Aramaic, and potentially Hebrew as well, since there was still native Hebrew-speakers in rural Judea up until the 2nd century, and was still used in religious texts in Jewish religious circles. It's highly unlikely that he spoke Latin or Greek, being the son of a carpenter, and not of the more upper-class Sadducees, who were known for that sort of thing.

So without the knowledge of the local language, I sincerely doubt any "Jesus is exiled to ________ and begins to preach" narratives, since if there's no one who can understand your message, there's no one to believe it. In all honesty, he'd probably die homeless and starving.

Clearly he spoke Greek. The interaction with Pontius Pilate is the most obvious indication, but he preached in the Dekapolis (a set of 10 cities founded in Hellenistic times), and when Greek speakers want to visit Jesus, they approach Philip (IIRC) and he brings them to Jesus - but there's no indication that there's any translation going on.

Remember, too, that he was a businessman (carpenter) in Nazareth, which was a commercial crossroads. Many of his customers would have spoken Greek even if Aramaic would have been more usual.

Latin? probably not. But he almost surely spoke Greek. Heck, even his disciples all seem to have not only spoken Greek, but many were literate in it (see the New Testament). Of course, Mark spoke a somewhat debased army barracks Greek, and I'm not claiming Jesus was more accomplished than that, but Greek WAS the language of administration in that time and place.

 

[Umbral]

Maybe, but eventually he won. Isn't the winner always right from an evolutionary standpoint?

No, evolution isn't about winning or being right.

And Pauls view won out because the Jews revolted, and the Roman annihilated Jerusalem including the mother church. He had made very little headway untill then.

Clearly he spoke Greek. The interaction with Pontius Pilate is the most obvious indication, but he preached in the Dekapolis (a set of 10 cities founded in Hellenistic times), and when Greek speakers want to visit Jesus, they approach Philip (IIRC) and he brings them to Jesus - but there's no indication that there's any translation going on.

Remember, too, that he was a businessman (carpenter) in Nazareth, which was a commercial crossroads. Many of his customers would have spoken Greek even if Aramaic would have been more usual.

Latin? probably not. But he almost surely spoke Greek. Heck, even his disciples all seem to have not only spoken Greek, but many were literate in it (see the New Testament). Of course, Mark spoke a somewhat debased army barracks Greek, and I'm not claiming Jesus was more accomplished than that, but Greek WAS the language of administration in that time and place.

You seem to be speaking of the Jesus described in testaments written long after his death. I don't think there is much indication that the historic Jesus spoke greek, or could read.

 

[Napoleon IV]

The main issue with Jesus teaching if he was deported to somewhere like Britain wouldn't be language, but message. Remember that Jesus's message was a very Jewish message: "I'm the Messiah here to redeem the world." That message would have to be explained to Gentiles (particularly since most of them would have never even met a Jew before). So his task would be twice as hard: he has to both convince the British of the Jewish religion and then convince them that he's the Messiah.

And then an even bigger issue is how culturally different Jesus's teachings were. Remember that he never said anything directly about circumcision, some of the dietary laws (particularly relating to food sacrificed by idols), etc. It's quite possible that Jesus would demand his followers accept these things, and that would be culturally incompatible with them (after all, many of his disciples followed Jewish law and considered that the correct way).

There's also the fact that if Jesus starts preaching again the Romans probably haul him before a court and execute him.

 

[Roger II]

It would be very difficult for Jesus to plead innocence. Hed spent his career since leaving John the Baptists side fitting the prophesies of the messiah. According to Roman law, claiming to be the "King of the Jews" or the Messiah" was sedition, and punished by execution.

And people were regularly executed for this. Jesus was guilty as sin, and had during his preaching made quite a splash with this.

There were two powers in the land at that time, and the Romans were by far the the dominant. The other power was the priest class. Jesus call for reform, not only attending to the sick, the lepers, the lame, the possessed, all those who could not be admitted to the Temple, but doing it for free. And even telling the healed to go show themselves to the priests. Along with the parables, it was a blatant attack on the priests.

Both the powers wanted Jesus executed. The Romans routinely, like they did with every other zealot that claimed to be the messiah.

Edit: Panthera survives and becomes the governor at the time?

So let's say that something changes within Roman Judea-maybe there's an incident at the temple that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of more conservative Sadducees and most Pharisees, convincing basically everyone who's not outright Roman that Something Must Be Done. Jesus starts preaching, has more support (because basically at this point everyone agrees that something has to be done about the temple) and the Sadducees are less interested in collusion with the Romans. Perhaps Jesus also moderates some of his rhetoric, possibly e.g. making it clear that he is calling for reforming the temple rather than destroying it. In any case, it is now substantially more dangerous for Pilate to execute him without sparking a revolt, nor does he have as much local opposition. So what does he do? He exiles him internally, or gives him a warning, or the trial just devolves into a riot and Jesus either is killed during the riot or escapes during the chaos. His followers largely disperse; some go to the North, some flee to the desert, etc. Or perhaps they band together and fall in with the Pharisees or Essenes, raising the possibility of a militant Essene sect.

 

[Napoleonrules]

Some of these replies, especially the one that says he must have had some knowledge of Greek, are taking the Bible way too seriously and not assuming the logical, and proven, instances of revision and the fact that many of the books were not written by the people they supposedly were written by. And then with all the extra insertions and editing that makes that most of the writing done by people who never even met Jesus.

 

[fi11222]

And Pauls view won out because the Jews revolted, and the Roman annihilated Jerusalem including the mother church.

Yes. This is exactly what winning is in the real world.

He had made very little headway untill then.

How do you know that ?

No, evolution isn't about winning or being right.

Religion is a meme. It is hard to find a more successful meme than Pauline Christianity. What other kind of "winning" and "being right" is there appart from memetic success?

 

[Practical Lobster]

Umbral is right - evolution is more about what survives than anything else. To quote biologist and author Peter Watts, there's no victories on this side of heat death. Pauline Christianity, like many other surviving memes, simply hasn't lost yet. It ensured it's own survival and remained adaptable enough to survive in some various forms into the modern day but so too did any number of beliefs philosophies and ideologies. To talk about a winner is meaningless.

But yes, it survived and adapted and endured. It had universal appeal which the more Jewish sects lacked. It was tailored to fit the Roman world and it did. So you're not totally wrong.

Also everyone talking about Jesus being exiled... what? Why? Don't we need to step back and look at a more historical Jesus? Napoleon and Umbral both make great points. Even if the Romans do for no clear exile this random Messianic figure, his career is basically over. No different than killing him. The later religious movement might well just find a new martyred messiah.

 

[viperjock]

There is a story in What If 2 by Carlos M. N. Eire that covers this subject. in the story Pilate spares Jesus because he listens to his wife. Jesus receives is protected by the Romans because they interpret his message as non violent and submissive ("render onto Cesar..." to them means pay your taxes). Christianity spreads OTL but it becomes the de facto form of the Jewish religion. Jesus spends the rest of his long life waiting for the chance to make the ultimate sacrifice but the chance never comes. Jesus himself is confused by his own message and his followers are vague as to who he exactly ends. In the end he declared the last great prophet. Rome makes TTL form of Judaism his official religion. The story ends with Constantine wondering if he should rebuild the temple in Jerusalem or stick with the new Synagogue he is has just built in Rome.

I think an interesting spin would be what if Jesus lives only to die in Rome in the time of Nero?

 

[Agricola]

I think an interesting spin would be what if Jesus lives only to die in Rome in the time of Nero?

A more jewish christianity becoming the new mainstream of Judaism is an interesting idea. My knowledge about Judaism is not good enough to assess, if this is plausible.

Indeed Jesus never acted against roman authorities. His message was even more beneficial from a roman point of view than standard Judaism. So it is not fully out of bounds, that a roman governor supports him by political reasons, if he investigates bit more about the religious and political background and its possible impact. On the other hand, the romans supporting Jesus might lead to even worse revolts than usual in the jewish communities.

Jesus just dies in Rome, if he is by accident in Rome while Rome burns. And then it matters, if he manages to resurrect or not. Crucification alone is perhaps not enough foe deification. Perhaps he simply dies ad bestias or is slaughtered by a gladiator. Crucification was not the only way to die in Rome.

PS: Just a weird idea. Jesus collaboration with the romans works that good, that he or his son becomes the new King of Judaea a few decades later. Finally the prophecy becomes true: the Messiah becomes the new King of the Jews. Just not the way the jews expected it.

However with a less agressive or separatistic Judaism, the big revolts are butterflied away. Hadrian stays in Mesopotamia, and now ....

 

[Clandango]

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14

Not only would there be no Christianity due to no Christ, but his Apostles and disciples would be a lot less willing to go to their deaths unless they had known a man for years, found he had returned from a brutal public execution alive, and then literally rose into the sky before their eyes. If there are not things like that then the original guys wouldn't be going around spreading the Word, especially since the Gospel points to them having thought it was going to be an earthly kingdom. And if Pilate refused to be blackmailed, I imagine Jesus's enemies would try to get a mob to kill him or something.

 

[Napoleonrules]

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14

Not only would there be no Christianity due to no Christ, but his Apostles and disciples would be a lot less willing to go to their deaths unless they had known a man for years, found he had returned from a brutal public execution alive, and then literally rose into the sky before their eyes. If there are not things like that then the original guys wouldn't be going around spreading the Word, especially since the Gospel points to them having thought it was going to be an earthly kingdom. And if Pilate refused to be blackmailed, I imagine Jesus's enemies would try to get a mob to kill him or something.

Um... taking the Bible a bit too seriously. But ok...

 

[RadishPumpkinsForever]

Well as a believer Id say he is still alive . But..

So I will go the other way, if he is allowed to live AH Christianity grows faster and much bigger with more centralized source (ala the Prophet).But the Romans would have to have done something they couldn't just leave him around. So probably exile is the most likely option.

Instead of growing to the West, Christianity grows East into Persia and India.