Romans on the Lake Chad

Hello!

I read this on Wikipedia:


  • "Flaccus expedition.
During Augustus times lake Chad was a huge lake and two Roman expeditions were done in order to reach it: Septimius Flaccus and Julius Maternus reached the "lake of ippopotamus" (as was called the lake Chad by Claudius Ptolomeus). They moved from coastal Tripolitania and passed near the Tibesti mountains. Both did their expeditions trough the Garamantes territories, and were able to leave a small garrison on the "lake of ippopotamus and rhinoceros" after 3 months of travel in desert lands.
Ptolemy wrote that in 50 AD Septimius Flaccus did his expedition in order to retaliate against nomad raiders who attacked Leptis Magna, and reached Sebha and the territory of Aozou. http://books.google.com/books?id=LY5Lmc-... Septimius Flaccus] He then reached the rivers Bahr Ergig, Chari and Logone in the lake Chad area, described as the "land of Ethiopes" (or black men).

  • Matiernus expedition.
Ptolomeus even wrote that around 90 AD Julius Maternus (or Matiernus) did a mainly commercial expedition. From the Sirte gulf he reached the Oasis of Cufra and the Oasis of Archei, then arrived to the river Bahr Salamat and Bahr Aouk, near the actual Central African republic. He went back to Rome with a rhinoceros with two horns, that was showed in the Colosseum."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_expeditions_to_lake_Chad_and_western_Africa


Does anyone on this board know how big those garrisons were and how long they lasted?


Sincerely,


Jan
 
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Sorry, I don't; I didn't even realize the Romans got this far into Africa. That being said, I don't specialize in Roman history. This is interesting, though.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
They did what?

:eek:

This could a fascinating possibility for a timeline.

I imagine that the expeditions were pulled back or abandoned at the first crisis, if they were any large, the first crisis would lead to nigh-unstoppable secession.

I do like the idea that a Marban Trajan could lead the Empire however :)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Holy distant outposts, Ro-man!
Wow.

That sounds like the setup for some book where the heroes run into a tribe of "white Africans" who speak school-book Latin and fight in Testudo.
 
Holy distant outposts, Ro-man!
Wow.

That sounds like the setup for some book where the heroes run into a tribe of "white Africans" who speak school-book Latin and fight in Testudo.

This should go along with colonies in the Americas and remnants in China.


Isn't this portion of Africa hard to live in with all the malaria and other diseases?
 
Holy distant outposts, Ro-man!
Wow.

That sounds like the setup for some book where the heroes run into a tribe of "white Africans" who speak school-book Latin and fight in Testudo.
Precisely my thinking too. If contact could be maintained until Constantine, then you could be looking at a Prester John type situation, providing the necessary ASBs keep things nice and OTL until about 1095...
 
As it's pointed out by the articles, it's essentially a matter to deal with Saharian peoples, rather than a full fledged conquest.

Simply said, Lake Chad was relatively far, and you had to cross not that hospitable terrain, and Maternus did with the help of Garamantes, a powerful people of the actual southern Libya, the whole point being crushing rebel clients of the king.

We're talking then not of an offensive, but about provincial politics, which involved not that known people (no other mention of Flaccus elsewhere) and probably much auxiliary support.

Not that Chad Lake's surrounding were uninteresting : Kanem-Bornu and its possible ancestors (Agisymba?) flourished there. And should Garamantes collapse earlier, and/or Romans have a real African policy, maybe Chadians could enter in constant relations with Romans, more or less the same way Garamantes or Nubians did.
The greatest African expedition happened durinh the Severian dynasty, from Leptis and with a greater knowledge of the region, after all.

Basically, such expedition would probably use the old trade roads (remember we're talking of an era where camel is virtually absent, so where such roads are more harsh and take longer to cross) : Fezzan/Gao, Oranais/Niger, Tripoli/Tibesti.

But one should remember that expeditions in Africa existed before : Hanno's periple or Pseudo-Scylax, for instance. But they were rare, and not that motivated. These trade roads didn't let much traces, and the exchanges may have been quite poor (and certainly virtually inexistent in comparison with the medieval trans-saharian trade).

What should motivate Romans would be military purposes, not economic, and would likely limit ambitions in the region. And Berber Kingdoms as Garamantes aren't going to make it easy.

Basically, for having something more, you'd really need to have a far more important trans-saharian trade, that may push Romans to control its northern trade cities/region. We're, IOTL, really far from that, and I don't know how to realize it giving the motivation have to come from Romans (trans-saharian or sub-saharian entities not being unified and strong enough to have the incitative).
Maybe (but I don't know nearly enough to say if it's possible : my guts says it's not easy) a flourishing Nok civilisation that manages to form not only a strong entity of its own, but influence its neighbours to undergo similar evolution?

I imagine that the expeditions were pulled back or abandoned at the first crisis, if they were any large,
Not exactly, you had more or less regular contacts, and you had other expeditions that followed. Not that they were costly (not particularly large or "threatening" politically) but it was clearly not a major or even secondary focus.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Precisely my thinking too. If contact could be maintained until Constantine, then you could be looking at a Prester John type situation, providing the necessary ASBs keep things nice and OTL until about 1095...

The only issue is that we'd butterfly away Mansa Musa (sad times) but a Prester John situation is perfectly sensible if there was a long-living Empire that was isolated from the Empire proper after its conversion to Christianity (butterflies permitting).

If a "Southern Roman Empire" managed to survive the impact of disease long enough to develop herd immunity/resistance, and expand to the coasts of West Africa, then I'd expect earlier colonisation of the New World, as the Emperors explore the sea to trade in larger quantities with back home, developing better ships for ocean travel.

All fascinating possibilities.

EDIT : If the Romans DO push the W.African politics game, and discover the gold in the area, we suddenly have a huge, shiny, yellow motivation to get involved in the region. You'd need one hell of a consummate politician/general to pull any conquest off, but I can see someone with the ambition to become a Julius Caesar of the South.
 
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Couldn't be Kanem-Bornu, not at these dates, although Agisymba could have been an earlier state of what would eventually become Kanem-Bornu but situated on the north of the lake.

Another mistake is that Flaccus and Maternus wanted to cross the desert : so far, what I saw went into participating to the pacification of Northern African polities, namely Garamantes. It's telling that Romans tought the world "ceased" by the Tropic of Capricorn.

As for Christianity crossing desert in Roman times, it's wishful thinking.

Simply saying, there was no much motivation or interest to go South for Romans, that already had much to deal with Berber peoples on what was considered as a secondary "border".

By the way, found a cool map.
http://historum.com/ancient-history/92025-known-world-romans.html[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Ptolemy's map is really interesting but it's not a Roman map, tough.

It's a map made along the description of Ptolemy by medievals byzantines carthographers using Ptolemy's coordinate. Attempting to say it's exactly the world as Romans knew it would be a bit hazardous.

Still you can see the difference of treatment between Eastern and Western Africa : the latter is clearly more vague and less accurate.
 
Couldn't be Kanem-Bornu, not at these dates, although Agisymba could have been an earlier state of what would eventually become Kanem-Bornu but situated on the north of the lake.

Another mistake is that Flaccus and Maternus wanted to cross the desert : so far, what I saw went into participating to the pacification of Northern African polities, namely Garamantes. It's telling that Romans tought the world "ceased" by the Tropic of Capricorn.

As for Christianity crossing desert in Roman times, it's wishful thinking.

Simply saying, there was no much motivation or interest to go South for Romans, that already had much to deal with Berber peoples on what was considered as a secondary "border".

By the way, found a cool map.
http://historum.com/ancient-history/92025-known-world-romans.html

Yeah, Ptolemy's map is really interesting but it's not a Roman map, tough.

It's a map made along the description of Ptolemy by medievals byzantines carthographers using Ptolemy's coordinate. Attempting to say it's exactly the world as Romans knew it would be a bit hazardous.

Still you can see the difference of treatment between Eastern and Western Africa : the latter is clearly more vague and less accurate.[/QUOTE]


Good to know.

So whatever penetration might occur within or past the Sahara would have to be through native friction and politics then?

Maybe more successful Berber attacks on roman areas of influence/control would force a stronger need for more cooperation with the Garamantes? Might increase the leveled of sustained interest and attention in the region and its people. I'm thinking that increased interaction would cause the Romans to delve more deeply into recording info and assessing their enemies and allies alike. Would probably be a two way street as well.

Here's a more relevant link on garrison size. There was only 1 legion permanently stationed in numidia at 5,000 strong.
It seems 20k of roman man power were auxiliaries.
And they seemed to transform into more of a policing force over time than a war one.
 
Holy distant outposts, Ro-man!
Wow.

That sounds like the setup for some book where the heroes run into a tribe of "white Africans" who speak school-book Latin and fight in Testudo.

Not only does it sound like it, but it is - this is essentially the plot of "Tarzan and the Lost Empire" by Edgar Rice Burroughs, in which Tarzan stumbles across a Roman remnant deep in the jungle...
 
So whatever penetration might occur within or past the Sahara would have to be through native friction and politics then?
Basically. The problem is that Africa was essentially a secondary front, for what mattered military, and you really have to wait an African dynasty (Severians) to have a real focus on the immediate southern borders.

Maybe more successful Berber attacks on roman areas of influence/control would force a stronger need for more cooperation with the Garamantes?
Well, Garamantes were often responsible for the more important raids, so it would probably end as IOTL : Garama being taken over.
Admittedly, it could translate as a more lasting occupation (while I doubt it : making Garamantes clients would be less onerous), but it wouldn't make the region more known strictly speaking.

Might increase the leveled of sustained interest and attention in the region and its people.
I'd rather see the reverse, to be honest : "Well, now we dealt with remote trouble-makers, let's go back to real issues".

I'm thinking that increased interaction would cause the Romans to delve more deeply into recording info and assessing their enemies and allies alike.
Maybe, but which ennemies? Going on errands to fight Berber peoples in Sahara would promise few loot, few glory, few everything while asking for more troops (would it be only for garrisons).

Would probably be a two way street as well.
With who? I don't really see which entity could count as a partner with Rome at this point, even assuming Romans could get interested.

It seems 20k of roman man power were auxiliaries.
And they seemed to transform into more of a policing force over time than a war one.[/QUOTE]
You're right : basically suppletives (that was the case in many borders, not only Africa). And 20 000 is being indeed generous : the whole army was really heterogenous, changed headquarters as you change clothes. Maybe 10 000 or 15 000 could be more realistic for the Ist century.

Basically its main concerns were the poorly romanised provinces (at the point legates acted as governors), managing the regular raids, and build infrastructures.

It really points the focus Romans had on Africa, militarily speaking.
 
There was also this expedition of two praeorian centurions to Nubia and further searching for the spring of the Nile. There are also hints, that roman traders were more involved in the arabian business with East-Africa, than we thought. And there was a roman base on the Ferrazan Island at the shores of Yemen (Southern Red Sea) in the early 2nd century. Probably a fleet base to fight piracy in this area. Some things will obviously never change. In the West the Canary Islands were known.

But obviously the romans never had a reason to go beyond securing existing borders and trade routes. And honestly, I can't imagine a good reason without ASBs.
 
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GdwnsnHo

Banned
Personally I think that this would be worthy of a TL.

I know it is borderline absurd, and this is exceptionally vague, but the story of a Julius Caesar of West Africa sounds awesome. I just thought I'd put out the loosest framework of a TL idea I had, that shouldn't have any non-local butterflies.

PoD : The Flaccan Expedition is unintentionally dragged into providing some manner of security for the locals. (Local saves the garrison commander, but said local's tribe is being harassed by bandits). This small protection requires them to build a larger fort, using local manpower and their skills. The locals and the soldiers manage to survive the majority of diseases due to the insistence of the commander on sanitation, and the general herd immunity of the locals.

News goes back to Tripolitania, who authorises the commander to operate on behalf of Rome, being sent supplies, but not significant reinforcements - practically a token, and given free reign in the region, in exchange for tribute. (That isn't realistically expected).

The commander, with the faintest rubber stamp, begins to make the locals auxileries, and basing his strategy on Julius Caesars invasion of Gaul, sets to conquering Lake Chad, in the process teaching the locals Latin, Roman strategy, and the skills of the various soldiers - essentially leaving a small, expansionist, latinized kingdom in Chad that is nominally affiliated with Rome. The commander eventually dies, leaving a former auxiliary-now-citizen (military service ftw) in charge, tasked with sending the aforementioned tribute to Leptis Magna.

The tribute (something small, some gold, some exotic hides and goods, perhaps some slaves) does arrive in Leptis Magna - and the new Governor uses this small tribute to boost his prestige with the Emperor (a few hundred men sent by his father, and there is now a Roman client state paying tribute) - and whilst the Romans are aware they can't really order the client state around, they open small lines of communications, and set up trade between this client state and Rome Proper.

By and large, there is no great change to the Empire, the trade provides a little more profit, and a few more resources - but any disease that would be brought across tends to kill people in the desert, knowledge of the diseases provided by the locals (now clients), who recommend just letting the infected die rather than spread the disease. The Empire has some more knowledge, and marginally more gold in the medium term, but as the client state is so isolated/remote, the only great change is that Leptis Magna regularly receives a representative that delivers a small tribute, an update on circumstances, asking for some resources/craftsmen from time to time - and taking news of "Home" (yes, I'm well aware, as are they, that their home is Chad) back to the client state.

TL;DR Expedition creates isolated Romanized Client state that dominates the Chad region, due to the fortunate clash of locals, Romans, and bandits.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Isolated enough to survive the general collapse of Rome in later centuries?
Because if so... that could be awesome fodder for a bizarro expedition to Africa.
(Neat idea - all those texts we're recovering from microscopic scanning of burned scrolls from Alexandria? They have actual copies down there when they're recontacted in the C.whatever.)
 
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