Romans land in New World

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

I doubt that they would freeze to death as Roman troops fought in Britain and Germany . By building a fortified camp they would have protection against the elements and would be able to stockpile wood to burn. For the sake of argument they would at least need a base in which they could carry out repairs to their ships and it would have to be strong enough to hold against any threat.
I would suppose that perhaps a small expedition might be sent southward down the coast to Maryland or Virgina region to see if conditions might be better to eventually relocate the Roman settlement to there.
It is possible that some of the ships might have had grain seed aboard.
Staten Island would be the place that I see them picking not Manhattan.

Okay cool they have a fort, that will help them not get killed in the short term by natives with whom they cannot communicate and have never gone to war with before, this means no espionage (if you intercept any sort of signal or message you don't understand it, back to square one) and you can't make peace and you can't call their tactics.

Their supplies better last too, unless they can learn to get food in alien territory and grow crops that they've never eaten (actually forget eating, they never even cultivated these) before.

What is the sentiment back in Rome that allows for this colonial venture to proceed? It's expensive and as far as they know they aren't getting any readily available returns on their investments, they aren't going to get South American gold in modern day New York. Things like tobacco and cotton will probably only be a strange curiosity unless some kind person sits down a Roman (senator or emperor, whatever time this happens) and explains that this weird leafy stuff you put in a pipe tastes nice and feels good if you smoke it and that cotton makes for good clothing. Rome isn't going to be immediately convinced of the need to send more and more of its citizens abroad to godforsaken lands abroad, especially once it becomes clear that the land is hostile and alien. Rome is an advanced civilization but its rulers may well lose heart when they hear of horrible new diseases and plagues killing their citizens that they have no recourse against unlike more domestic stuff.

 

[Julius Vogel]

Well, there is always the other approach to contact - where the initial visitors/explorers/traders go native and the locals take absorb what they like from the new members of the community on their own terms. That might be hard if you have say the remanants of several legions floating in on the tide.

The problem with the assimilation option is that it is quite possible that there are no profound long term changes or advances for the local culture, if the new members are a one-off, or in small numbers. You might instead just get a few strangers marrying local women, probably a couple of neat ideas, a high possibility of new diseases and that is about it.

 

[chris N]

Okay let ne try this again, The ships were ot of a convoy tat was baring Roman soldiers to the British isles. Several of the ships were baring gain and other needed supply. The story hits the convoy and out of more thab 40 ships 15 are carried across the Atlantic. The arrive off of the coast of Virginia in late March. The Roman Tribune commanding reaizes hat they are not anywhere near where they should be. Most of the ships will need a lot of repairs before they are able to make any attempt at a sea voyage.

A decision is made to build a base that would provide them with shelter against the elements and against any threat, Tribune Marcus Paterious, realiious that while he has soldiers he must avois a conflict if at all possible with any natives. He has a cohort of Legionnaires and 2 senturies of auxallieries plus come encineries and awar machine with a crew. There are some Roman civilians including woman and children but not in large numbers. Some of the ships has Roman Marines . He talks to the ship commanders ans off load the people. A fortification is needed to be safe and the ships need to be repaired.
Three ships are in good enough shape to allow an exploration of the coast.
tThis will give him a better idea as to what thins might look like. One Ship sails north and teo tothe south. Both are to stay close to the coast and travel for three days before turninf back to the place where the people were landed.
The Tribune realios that the seed graine that he has must be planted by tose people that were aboard that know farming. He must hope to grow enough grain to feed the people as he is unsure as to how long they might be in this strange land. He will also hope that he might deal with any natives that there might be peacefully as he does not have enough forces to try to conqureor the lands for Rome.
Let Us futher state that the Romans are capable of building an impressibe fortress from which the people can live. They are able to grow enough food to survive. Some of the ships are to damaged to be repaired and this work is begun of building new vessels.
Thus it appears that a Roman Colony is planted as there will not be enough vessels to recross the sea back to Europe.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Okay let ne try this again, The ships were ot of a convoy tat was baring Roman soldiers to the British isles. Several of the ships were baring gain and other needed supply. The story hits the convoy and out of more thab 40 ships 15 are carried across the Atlantic. The arrive off of the coast of Virginia in late March. The Roman Tribune commanding reaizes hat they are not anywhere near where they should be. Most of the ships will need a lot of repairs before they are able to make any attempt at a sea voyage.

A decision is made to build a base that would provide them with shelter against the elements and against any threat, Tribune Marcus Paterious, realiious that while he has soldiers he must avois a conflict if at all possible with any natives. He has a cohort of Legionnaires and 2 senturies of auxallieries plus come encineries and awar machine with a crew. There are some Roman civilians including woman and children but not in large numbers. Some of the ships has Roman Marines . He talks to the ship commanders ans off load the people. A fortification is needed to be safe and the ships need to be repaired.
Three ships are in good enough shape to allow an exploration of the coast.
tThis will give him a better idea as to what thins might look like. One Ship sails north and teo tothe south. Both are to stay close to the coast and travel for three days before turninf back to the place where the people were landed.
The Tribune realios that the seed graine that he has must be planted by tose people that were aboard that know farming. He must hope to grow enough grain to feed the people as he is unsure as to how long they might be in this strange land. He will also hope that he might deal with any natives that there might be peacefully as he does not have enough forces to try to conqureor the lands for Rome.
Let Us futher state that the Romans are capable of building an impressibe fortress from which the people can live. They are able to grow enough food to survive. Some of the ships are to damaged to be repaired and this work is begun of building new vessels.
Thus it appears that a Roman Colony is planted as there will not be enough vessels to recross the sea back to Europe.

Okay, so I am to believe that fifteen of these are capable of carrying an entire cohort of troops, plus another couple of hundred of auxiliaries, and several marines and civilians in addition to war machines and piles of grain? And all this plus enough food and water to survive an ocean-trip? And then I'm supposed to believe that these galleys, which are not built to go through rough seas, let alone an entire ocean, will survive the trip without a single one of them sinking in this storm let alone anything at all being lost overboard? And they all survive the trip without anyone suffering from starvation or dehydration, or even exhaustion? And then once they get there they automatically know how to survive the coming winter and somehow have a large fortress and steady food supplies despite not knowing anything about the land? Is this right?

 

[chris N]

To begin with the convoy was composed of more than 40 ships of which 15+ battered ships arrived in the New World.. I said 1 cohort plus 2 centuries of Auxiliaries. plus 1 war machine with crew and a detachment of engineers. The total number of Marines would be perhaps 75-85. Out of the ships only 3 were in any kind of shape to go exploring the coast and it was decided to limit any trip to 3 days from the landing site.

It was latter decided that at least 3 of the remaining ships were too badly damaged to be seaworthy.
Another point they are landing in March thus they have a chance of growing some food stuff and hunting. Next point the landing is now much further southwards and no longer New York Harbor. Some of the people aboard do know how to farm. I have not said that they are all in perfect shape or that all would survive the struggle.
Next point in building a fortified base the Roman commander would be following standard Legion practice. While none of the people would know the land it is likely that the Auxallieres would know hunting and tracking. In addition there would be a source of water as I believe that it would be possible to find fresh water.

 

[Swan Station]

Another point they are landing in March thus they have a chance of growing some food stuff...

Maybe. How long is going to take them to clear out the trees and stones and still have enough time for the crop to grow? And then, they have to till the hard, tough forest dirt that has never tasted human agriculture (as someone said, this is long before Maize reaches the area), cleaning out thick roots and stumps as they go. Those first couple of years, assuming anything grows in soil which is balanced for supporting Virginia coastland forests, the fields will be so full of weeds that they will probably have to go out and pull at least once every couple of days. And, I don't know how much of a problem it is that the crops they're planting are adapted to a completely different continent and climate.

It's hot, hard work, probably far worse than digging fortifications for battle. Did they bring plows, etc? I didn't notice, if you said whether there were slaves with them. Would the soldiers be willing to do all of this without deciding to mutiny and go native?

And, did you have anything to say about my comment that the weather patterns might preclude this scenario in the first place?

EDIT: Please, don't consider these things as critical. Instead, think of them as fire meant to temper your ideas and help you improve them, to create the best work which you can.

 

[chris N]

Yes there is Some equipment aboard one of the ships that survived the journey. In addition with some of the ships damage some of the slaves will not be needed for warships or the merchant ships. This will be an additional source of labor. Now I am not sure as to whether to have them land in Chesapeake Bay or further south in Virginia. It may be that in cutting down the tree they might have to burn the vegetation , On point in my looking at Staten Island the island did have a small nomad population of Indians that used burn an slash to clear areas and then would move on the were hunters and fishers also.
It is possible that some of the Roman sailors might also fish thus providing a source of food during the warm months.
Weather will be a problem but not as bad as if they were in New England.
I will have to check and see what I might find out about the weather but I do recall that it would gradually be getting a lot warmer over the centuries. By the time that the Vikings came conditions were very warm in North America.
Suggestions are welcome in order to make the story better.

 

[Sexplosive]

Why would Roman colonists suddenly develop medieval armor and gunpowder weapons?

Well, when they do that's what they might look like.

 

[Swan Station]

Weather will be a problem but not as bad as if they were in New England.
I will have to check and see what I might find out about the weather but I do recall that it would gradually be getting a lot warmer over the centuries.

No, I was talking about the weather in the Atlantic which guides their ship to this area in the first place. Look up prevailing winds, trade winds, etc. Basically, in general ships at the latitudes north of Florida are going to be pushed back east, south of Florida they are pushed west. What I'm not sure enough is if it's possible for a freak storm to ignore these prevailing winds and go the exact opposite direction.

Otherwise, you'd have better luck getting a ship heading to the Canary Islands to end up in Hispaniola.

 

[Ofaloaf]

No, I was talking about the weather in the Atlantic which guides their ship to this area in the first place. Look up prevailing winds, trade winds, etc. Basically, in general ships at the latitudes north of Florida are going to be pushed back east, south of Florida they are pushed west. What I'm not sure enough is if it's possible for a freak storm to ignore these prevailing winds and go the exact opposite direction.

No, the Westerlies don't reverse themselves, at least not across the entire breadth of the ocean. There's isolated storms that occasionally head in unusual directions due to shifting pressure fronts, but those don't tend to cross the whole Atlantic themselves.

 

[Torqumada]

Would it be possible for the Romans to island hop like the Vikings did centuries later to North America?

Torqumada

 

[BillFishZ]

Assuming that getting blown off course leads them to wash up on say Virginia, it is likely that there would not be much left. THey may decide to consolidate with whatever small number of ships is left and just try and get back (after reparing what they can). They may be able to use the currents and easterly winds to get back. THus, this "accidental" voyage onlky serves to bring word of another land.

Now, you would have to spin things back at the Empire, to see if anyone is interested in trying to go back?

Then again, if a fleet out of the Med bound for Brittan, might get swept up in the storms/westlies and more likely end up farther south than Virginia. Either way, no matter...The premis here (not nearly as exciting) is that some contact is made and someone makes it back.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Otherwise, you'd have better luck getting a ship heading to the Canary Islands to end up in Hispaniola.

"Praetors of the Caribbean" ? The Romans would definitely have better luck settling the Bahamas or Cuba/Hispaniola/Puerto Rico
than the northeastern continent. No dealing with New England winters ; no bears; and no armies of skraelings to attack them
then vanish back into the woods.

Is this before/after 150 AD (if before, the Romans can't expose the natives to smallpox or measles) ?

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Well, when they do that's what they might look like.

Urgh... why do you assume a Roman colony in America would automatically last over a thousand years and somehow develop the same way as medieval Europe even though they have no contact with them or even the same materials available? This is a better depiction of what Roman colonists would look like a couple years after they landed.

Now, you would have to spin things back at the Empire, to see if anyone is interested in trying to go back?

They probably would not be interested in the slightest. Again, they lack good ocean-going vessels, and there's not much interest there. Just wood and furs as far as they'd know, which there's plenty of in Britain and Germany, which are unconquered and much closer to them.

"Praetors of the Caribbean" ? The Romans would definitely have better luck settling the Bahamas or Cuba/Hispaniola/Puerto Rico
than the northeastern continent. No dealing with New England winters ; no bears; and no armies of skraelings to attack them
then vanish back into the woods.

Is this before/after 150 AD (if before, the Romans can't expose the natives to smallpox or measles) ?

Armies of skraelings are still a threat. The first settlement left by Columbus died within a year when they were slaughtered by the locals after antagonizing them. Columbus's crew wasn't all that smart, to be sure, but I would hesitate to say that Roman legionnaires of all people would be less pugnacious and brutal than them.

 

[chris N]

It would seem likely that if the storm did hit them, and lets say for the sake of argument that it blew them across the Atlantic that they could arrive off the coast of North America and allow the Gulf stream to help bear them them further northward It might be better if they landed near the Chesapeake Bay. There they would be close to the Delaware tribe which might be friendly to the Romans and seek to help them.
As for Bears I tend to doubt that the Romans would be afraid of them as they probably came into contact with them in Europe. There is little doubt that if Rome found out about this new world they would send more settelrs and forces to it. For the Emperor it would be the ideal place to send people that might cause problems for him. In North America they would be more than 3000 miles away from the Empire and it would take a considerable time to sale across the Atlantic. I doubt that technology would change as fast as it would in Europe. Still the Empire would be able to do what the Vikings were unable to establish a large base in the New World with the protection of a first rate military force.

 

[Blackfox5]

North America is too far away for Rome to exercise any kind of actual political control or to logistically support. Assuming the soldiers can successfully cross back - a huge if - the "colony" is likely to be abandoned. Roman ships of the era are simply not suited for trans-Atlantic voyages. However, having proof that there is a new world out there will have awesome ramifications later on.

I think a more likely scenario is that the Roman troops are stuck there. They intermarry with the local tribes. Any racial form of Romanitas disappears. However, the knowledge of the Roman soldiers remains, giving the local Romano-Indians an incredible headstart in metallurgy and engineering plus writing. If they have crops that can be successfully planted, then you've improved the area's infrastructure.

The Romans might - just might - be able to successfully create a real city - a New Rome - and retain some kind of culturally independence. They'd need to steal women for some tribes to start families on their own. That would be the only way to remain distinct. Otherwise their identity disappears into the tribe they marry into. In any case, racially they become Indians within a few generations.

 

[Sexplosive]

Urgh... why do you assume a Roman colony in America would automatically last over a thousand years and somehow develop the same way as medieval Europe even though they have no contact with them or even the same materials available? This is a better depiction of what Roman colonists would look like a couple years after they landed.

Well to be honest, that would be boring if you assume the Roman colony just died out .
Secondly, who says they wouldn't remain in contact?

 

[Redcat]

This is a better depiction of what Roman colonists would look like a couple years after they landed.

I'll be honest, I was not expecting that picture. That link made me chuckle, good job

 

[jackalope]

Veniti Ships

Britain and Germany aren't America, and there the Romans were not far from their empire and had a steady supply line. And still they failed. Here you are talking about a couple of boats of lost men with no supplies in a totally alien land they know nothing about. Again, the history of colonization isn't Europeans arriving in America and immediately creating towns and cities, it's one of privation, hardship, suffering, and mass death. The first European settlement in America was Vinland. Look how long that lasted before the hardy Norsemen were chased away. Then there's La Navidad, established by Columbus. Only lasted a year or less before they antagonized the locals and were all killed. Roanoke lasted a year. Others lasted even shorter. And these last few were from the time when colonies weren't as isolated from their empires as a boatload of Romans in New York.

Here is a couple of Veniti Ships to illustrate.

Your examples might not be really very comparable, and in some cases may be not factual.

Since we are dealing with a favorable "what if", it is not implausible at all.

The Phoenicians apparently went around the the whole of Africa (reign of Necho) and about Gabon some years later (Hanno). Coastal efforts which beached whenever weather appeared, to be sure. But the records say for the first voyage that each year they stopped to plant grain, thus keeping an active reserve, I recall reading.

Anyway, the Romans were versitile and ingenius. Moreso at war, but it is not at all difficult to believe they had a chance at settlement. And as far as the lost colony at Roanake, two things come up to make a poor example. One, it was one of the worst droughts in that region of the milennia. Two, more speculatively, the survivors by prearranged plan went to the tribes not yet antagonized. A group went north, apparently, as Pocahantas tribe Powhatan cheifdom had gone on a raiding party to what is now Norfork and killed among the regulars some white folk, including women and children as I remember. Another is said to go due East and became what is called the Lumbee tribe, which still exists. Maybe, as this is somewhat dismissed by historians, but still puts a lot of doubt in your example.

Settlements had a high attrition rate. Vinland, your other example, was beset by the then one of the most organized and fierce tribes of the Northern Hemisphere, plus a misunderstanding involving lactose intollerance (stomache pains, the indians thought the milk was poison).

As far as Navidad, well, Columbus was not as good an organizer as a lot of Romans were. Besides, the man was not even present when all went to pot, as greedy prison scum and rich boys on the make were.

The Romans failed in Britain and Germany? There are several centuries you are not accounting for here. With the Picts and Germans (non Celtic, as much of modern Germany still was according to many accounts), they were difficult, so the Legions quarantined them. The Picts never really invaded, more coming from the west in Ireland, till foolishly the Britons brought in Jutes/Angles/Saxons were brought in as cheap muscle.

The Germans were growing for about a thousand years. Considering in 410 to the east, the Germans had what is believed to be contingeous kingdoms to the Caucaus mountains just before Attilla, and was mostly in the small top part of Germany at the time of the Teutoburg Forest blunder, clearly this was a force growing over the next few centuries. In fact, only the unclear Celtic growth many hundreds of years previous seems comparable, and the Germans were far more warlike. To paint them as ordinary is folly.

About Roman Britain, almost all of the island was taken, and Scotland was discarded as a worthless rockpile. Only after losing interest does Rome leave much later, in 410, so to do triage elsewhere in Europe and Asia Minor with the much needed military forces. Anyway, so I suggest these examples of yours do not seem to help illuminate much at all. Hopefully some of you appreciate the time and effort to research this for AH.com

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/drought/drght_james.html

http://www.lost-colony.com/newhint.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Colony_DNA_Project

 

[chris N]

As pointed out Phoenician vessels were able to sail all the ways around the coast of Africa to far away India ans Back. Thus it should be possible for the Romans to make it across the Atlantic.

Would Rome remain in contact with the Colony. I would tend to think that it would for at least as long as it remained in Britain. If History followed the same general course as it did in our line then west around 482 AD the American Colony would be cut lose. But by that time we might well be looking at a Roman settlement that might well have grown to more than 100,000+ in 382 years. It would have probably raised its own Legion.

As for the Vikings they were never able to gain enough settlers to allow them to overcome the natives and the warm up period was coming to an end when the decided to end their colony in North America. Unlike the Vikings the Romans were capable builders and were organizers of a trained Military capable of waging an effect war and defense.