Romans in 1399 mod thingy for EU3

Hmmf.

For some reason my (admittedly very old and extremely inactive) account on the paradox fora won't let me reply to the thread. I should have the game registered and everything.

Anyway, I probably won't have as much time to help out as I used to. I could always come up with suggestions and comments in here however, if you'd like.

I would for example advise against putting in a Norse Greenlandic state, as some people in the thread were talking about. If the Norse never settled Iceland they also never reached Greenland ITTL, and the Hy-Brazilians would likely not be as much into exploring as the Norse, so Greenland should be empty (an Inuit state would just be silly).

You could however change the native cultures of the provinces pre-colonisation. There was a culture that used to live on Greenland before the Inuit and the Norse arrived, IIRC. It was either killed off by or absorbed into the Inuit population when they arrived from the west.
 
Skraelings? I don't know much about Greenlandic history, unfortunately. :(

I think I might veer from the Nordic-Islam idea previous used, and just do a germane mixture of Christian heresies. Just added in Donatism and Arianism today.

Do you think its overkill to make the Vandals and other Romantic North African states part of the Western tech group?
 
Hmmf.
You could however change the native cultures of the provinces pre-colonisation. There was a culture that used to live on Greenland before the Inuit and the Norse arrived, IIRC. It was either killed off by or absorbed into the Inuit population when they arrived from the west.

The Dorsets, no? I'm a bit iffy on the subject.
 
Skraelings? I don't know much about Greenlandic history, unfortunately. :(

I think I might veer from the Nordic-Islam idea previous used, and just do a germane mixture of Christian heresies. Just added in Donatism and Arianism today.

Do you think its overkill to make the Vandals and other Romantic North African states part of the Western tech group?

The Dorsets, no? I'm a bit iffy on the subject.

Dorset culture, yes.

No worries if you aren't very familiar with them: we basically know nothing about them, as is usually the case of early pre-columbian peoples.


As for the Nordic religion how about to spice things up you make the Germanics Orthodox?


Western tech group in North Africa... I don't know. I mean, it would make sense in the setting, but just look at what Castille usually does to North Africa in vanilla and you can see why that might be a problem.

Maybe if you at the same time made the native African states of the Islamic tech group (or whatever you call it in this mod)?
 
Sorry for putting that here, but for some reason Paradox Interactive isn't letting me reply there even though my account was registered all the way back on August 1st :( (BTW, do you know why? I'm there as january1may.)

Oh, right, the post. :)
Remember the problem with the far north of Europe? You know, the place you put Sapmi in? If I remember correctly, you said, quote, "I still don't know what else to do with the extreme north aside from plopping Sami people up there. If someone has a viable, even ahistoric alternative, I'm all ears, but as it is I don't know what else to do".

Well, if by "extreme north" you mean the territory of modern Murmansk Oblast (rather than Finnmark, just to the west), you don't need to search any more :)


From Wikipedia's article on Bjarmaland:

Based on medieval sources, Bjarmaland's closest neighbor in the west was Kvenland. According to some medieval accounts and maps, Kvenland included also the Kola Peninsula north from Bjarmaland, as stated e.g. in the late 1150s' AD Leiðarvísir og borgarskipan in which the Icelandic Abbot Níkulás Bergsson writes that north from Värmland there are "two Kvenlands (Kvenlönd), which extend to north of Bjarmia (Bjarmalandi)".[5]


As such, the state you're looking for is Kvenland. I'd say you would have inevitably stumbled on Kvenland while looking for information on period Finland anyway; still, I'm not sure you would have found that particular quote, and the (rather confusing) article on Kvenland doesn't appear to say anything about the northern parts (only the southern ones - basically modern Finland).

You still need someone to have Finnmark, of course. I'd say either indeed give it to Kvenland as well or just have a Sapmi and a Kvenland (which does make sense, given the OTL accounts). Coincidentally, all contemporary accounts appear to call Sami "Finn" or somesuch - thus calling Sapmi "Finland" (or, even better, just "Finnmark" like the region) isn't all that anachronistic. (BTW, what's the MEIOU province division over there?)

I'm not sure whether or not to include Bjarmaland. It is, coincidentally, the same state as Perm; yet this one would include a lot of places we would otherwise attribute to Novgorod. But of course Russia should really be reworked to be less obviously vanilla (e.g. just use all those Slavic tribes, i.e. Krivichi, Dregovichi, Vyatichi, Radimichi, Drevliane, Poliane, etcetera - IIRC there's a lot of decent maps for their placement; actually, just use anything but OTL 1350s - as much as I liked the whole thing, it doesn't look well in a mod set in 1356).


...So what, how? :):)
January First-of-May
 
Kven is really just another term for Finn or Sami though. Kvenland is just an old term for Lappland (which actually wouldn't be a bad name for a Finno-Ugric state in the north, though the inhabitants themselves wouldn't call it that), essentially. What you'd have is Sapmi by a different name.

Also it's only the Norwegians that call the Sami Finns. Presumably the relative distance made a precise distinction between the two unnecessary in early Norwegian times.
 
Kven is really just another term for Finn or Sami though. Kvenland is just an old term for Lappland (which actually wouldn't be a bad name for a Finno-Ugric state in the north, though the inhabitants themselves wouldn't call it that), essentially. What you'd have is Sapmi by a different name.

I realize that. It's just that everyone was talking about the implausibility of Sapmi, and Kvenland is historical (i.e. period OTL).
Lappland would also work but be somewhat anachronistic (i.e. too late for the "anachronism" level - it's much later than 10th century), and Finland, while an old enough name, would look somewhat weird in the north rather than OTL Finland (Finnmark is actually a good compromise in that regard). Kvenland, of course, has neither problem - it's too obscure to really be associated with anything, and is mentioned in the account of Ohthere back in the 9th century.

Coincidentally, there was a recent thread on NPC talking about Kvenland. Weird, isn't it? :):)
 
I don't know. Kvenland is sort of insulting as well.

Would Finnmark be better?
Remember, we're likely talking about the Sami people either way. Kvenland is the historical kingdom in the region, so would be a good compromise given that people are already arguing that Sapmi as it is was ASB; Finnmark is, though, also an old enough name so might well work. What of those would you find less insulting? I'd bet on Kvenland. ;)

(OOC: Are either of you Sami? Just in case :))
 
Well, the thing is that Kvenland is just like Lappland a name given to an area by outsiders. It has nothing to do with what the people living there themselves called their land.

Sápmi is about the best you are going to get in that regard (even if the name is a bit anachronistic).

Besides, Kvenland was likely not in the area where Sapmi is in the game, but in northern Finland (and probably it was just a different name for Finland).
 
Well, the thing is that Kvenland is just like Lappland a name given to an area by outsiders. It has nothing to do with what the people living there themselves called their land.

Sápmi is about the best you are going to get in that regard (even if the name is a bit anachronistic).

Besides, Kvenland was likely not in the area where Sapmi is in the game, but in northern Finland (and probably it was just a different name for Finland).

A good part of the names in both EU3-DW and (somewhat less so, but still) MEIOU aren't what the people called themselves, but indeed names given by outsiders - from the Byzantium (Romaioi or somesuch - not sure about the exact ending) to the Iroquious (Haudenosaunee); I'm not going to check the entire list, but only because I don't have one! (Indeed, if anyone has a list of nations at MEIOU start, I'd be happy to sift through it and count the exact percentage of wrong names; I'd bet at something along the lines of 20%, and even that mostly due to all those HRE statelets having the correct names - for that as well as other reasons, DW proper would probably get much more).

In short: Sapmi was picked upon to the point of "you might as well name the country ASB". Kvenland is an actual period country in about the same place, maybe a little more south - and it was pretty consistently named Kvenland. Finnmark is the modern name for the area in question, but it has a history stretching back far enough that it can theoretically work. Lappland is both insulting and a relatively recent invention, and was pretty much mentioned only for the sake of completeness (and, coincidentally, by you and not me). IMHO Kvenland is the best choice - but of course Ofaloaf is free to think otherwise :)

Oh, yes, about location. Kvenland is indeed mostly in modern Finland, but apparently was commonly depicted as being north of Bjarmaland, which given what we know of Bjarmaland would (also) put it in modern Murmansk Oblast (aka Kola) - which is part of the problematic region.

BTW, really, can anyone just get a screenshot of the area in MEIOU so that I have an idea about the province placement? Ofaloaf's thread has none, nor does the official MEIOU thread (their Scandinavia screenshot ends quite a way south of the region in question).
 
I think you are misunderstanding Nordic geography a bit. Finnmark is far to the north, and a part of Norway. Kvenland was to the south of that, in what we today would term Finland.
 
I think you are misunderstanding Nordic geography a bit. Finnmark is far to the north, and a part of Norway. Kvenland was to the south of that, in what we today would term Finland.

I. Know. That. Already. :mad:
I'm not sure which particular regions Ofaloaf is asking who to give to (and won't be sure until he specifically says it, which likely wouldn't be soon as he isn't really following this thread anymore).
I also realize where Kvenland was. But apparently there still are accounts claiming Kola for Kvenland (see my Wikipedian quote above), so it isn't too ahistorical. I'd assume Kvenland territory roughly followed the modern Russo-Finnish border, where coincidentally MEIOU apparently has a long thin province just in the correct place (I got that from a blank map, so I'd still prefer a screenshot so that I get the province names).
There's still nobody to give Finnmark the OTL region to, of course (and by that I mean, it's either Sapmi the ASB state or the nearest piece of Norway - Kvenland had certainly never owned that). I'm not sure why not just let it stay uncolonized at start (which most of the nearby area apparently is in vanilla MEIOU, including the long thin province), but Ofaloaf presumably has his reasons.

So what, how? :)
January First-of-May
 
I don't think Sapmi is such an ASB state, at least if you run with the Nordislam thing (I don't know if Ofa was going to drop that or not though). Norse missionaries going to the north to convert the Sami would only make sense, and once they have converted they are likely to start adopting other customs from the south, including the ones about building states and kingdoms.

The most ASB part is probably that they are united under one single rule, but that's easily solvable by just making several petty Sami kingdoms instead of one. They'd be really weak and won't last long though.
 
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