What if the Romans had discovered the formula and developed Greek Fire as a weapon on the same level as the Byzantines ? Would they have had a strategic edge that allows them to continue ? Would their naval superiority be unchallenged ? Would Greek fire be useful on land ? Could they defend their cities against besiegers ?
Romans had Greek Fire in Antique times
- Thread starter Byzantion
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Could such a military innovation change something regarding the fate of the Roman Empire ?
I think roman gunpowder could, but not a primarily naval thing like greek fire. they might be able to hold north africa by preventing the vandals from crossing gibraltar but beyond that they were already doomed
Very unlikely. Rome was not brought down by a series of naval disasters, and Greek Fire was useful only in very specific conditions.
If they managed to discover it some centuries earlier, however, I'm pretty sure the Carthaginians would collectively shit bricks.
As far as I recall Greek fire only made a difference in naval combat. Like the siege of Constantinople for example. So unless it was discovered early on it won’t change anything. At least until the vandals take Carthage that is.
I don't think it would change much.
Maybe it helps the Romans keep their territory in Africa
Maybe it helps the Romans keep their territory in Africa
That alone changes things. North Africa will keep the Romans fed and with enough money and people to stay stable.
Hmmmm... I wonder if "Death by Greek Fire" might become a new execution method for hated enemies of the Republic.
Btw, didn't the Eastern Romans use Greek Fires in grenades thrown from slings as well?
True enough, but North Africa alone can't save them.
Btw, didn't the Eastern Romans use Greek Fires in grenades thrown from slings as well?
True enough, but North Africa alone can't save them.
well it could work for sieges if you mounted on syphons ( i think that is how its called) since you can burn the siege engines and the troops asullting the walls
NA was their money maker and bread basket. Without it the empire was done for.
roman centurion : shot the fire at this specific angle ,
soldier shots it at any place and burns the city
but in it can work and not burn your city , heck if you want to go full ape shit burn the enemy camp
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The vandals did not invade North Africa "Omaha Beach style"...
They were invited by the rebellious general Bonifacius, who was in rebellion against the central government at the time. For all we know, he provided them the ships himself.
As for which naval battles could have been different?
Against the Goths in Black Sea in 256 and the Heruli in 267 would have perhaps enabled them to achieve victory, although the Romans won those wars regardless of their early naval defeats.
Battle of the Hellespont (324) may have ended differently, although that was a civil war between Constantine and Licinus where the latter was already on the back foot. Considering that the eastern half of the Empire, that Licinus controlled, was the most Christianized, the long-term trend is inevitable, even if Constantine is forced to settle for half the empire.
Cartagena under Majorian could have had some sort of impact, but it was basically the Vandals catching the Romans with their pants down. Greek fire wouldn't have changed a thing.
They were invited by the rebellious general Bonifacius, who was in rebellion against the central government at the time. For all we know, he provided them the ships himself.
As for which naval battles could have been different?
Against the Goths in Black Sea in 256 and the Heruli in 267 would have perhaps enabled them to achieve victory, although the Romans won those wars regardless of their early naval defeats.
Battle of the Hellespont (324) may have ended differently, although that was a civil war between Constantine and Licinus where the latter was already on the back foot. Considering that the eastern half of the Empire, that Licinus controlled, was the most Christianized, the long-term trend is inevitable, even if Constantine is forced to settle for half the empire.
Cartagena under Majorian could have had some sort of impact, but it was basically the Vandals catching the Romans with their pants down. Greek fire wouldn't have changed a thing.
The only two weapons that could have potentially helped Rome would have been either gunpowder or the stirrup.
The stirrup is a maybe, I’m not sure if there’s anyone around them who used them that they could pick it up from. But the gunpowder is completely unrealistic.
If I remember correctly people knew about Greek Fire long before it was usable in combat. I think the problem was developing an appropriate delivery method took quite a while to figure out and of course it took longer for the land based version to be developed. Even then its effectiveness was limited needing favorable wind conditions and calm seas for the naval version. Unsurprisingly the more famous uses are in the waters of the Golden Horn which is usually calm allowing for favorable deployment.
Greek fire in Roman times would be a curiosity but the Empire's problems ran far deeper
Greek fire in Roman times would be a curiosity but the Empire's problems ran far deeper