Romans discover Australia !!

Scarecrow said:
yeah, it doesnt sound as good as 'the Batavians' though.


How about the Western Secessionists? :)



Scarecrow said:
give us some time to come up with my rebutal, but i think somehow we ,especialy my position, have switched sides in this hijacted thread. i'm saying we can't secede, your saying that we west aussies can go if we want...


ok, well how about an exercise in constitutional legal practice? Obviously there are two sides, so let's look at their arguments. Now the Feds will be against secession so we'll look at what they can do first.

The Feds will obviously want to prove that the Commonwealth is "indissoluble". But as we know this statement is in the Preamble & can't be used at prima facie. So the Commonwealth has to find a way to get into the Preamble via a link. However, there's nothing in the Constitution pre se that clearly links to the first paragraph of the Preamble. Furthermore, Quick & Garran state in The Annotated Constitution of the Australian Commonwealth, that the term "indissoluble" is a principle & not a law. This is why it is not in the Constitution proper, even though Quick would argue that the Commonwealth is "indissoluble".

So the Feds must look, instead, to Section 51. Here it states, in Paragraph vi, that the military forces are controlled by Parliament "... to execute and maintain the laws of the Commonwealth". If this is so, this opens the way for statue law to be brought into the situation. And in this case we'd be talking about the Crimes Act (1914)

Now the relevant part of the Crimes Act (1914) is Section 24. This deals with Treason & Sedition. In other words, the actions of WA to secede could be declared sedition. As a result, the West is acting illegally in wanting to secede from the Commonwealth. As a result of this, it is therefore implied in the Constitution that the Commonwealth is indeed "indissoluble". Once this is established, then you can point to the Preamble thus supporting the arguement that it is not only implied in the Constitution, but indeed is a fundamental component that cannot be denied. As such West Australia couldn't secede. And any attempt to do so, is sedition & treason as outlined in the Crimes Act (1914)

Then there's what Western Australia can argue. First off, they will remind everyone that the Preamble has no barring on Constitutional Law. Then they will rightly point out that there is no such section in the Australian Constitution that states that the Commonwealth is "indissoluble". Furthermore, they will argue that there isn't even a hint in the Constitution about it being "indissoluble" at prima facie. Again they would be right.

But then comes the clincher to the whole Constitutional position. If Western Australia secedes, can they be successfully charged with treachery? The whole problem is for the Feds, on this issue, is that WA isn't declaring independence from Britain. As a result they aren't dealing in sedition against the Monarch. Instead they are wanting independence from the Commonwealth. These are two different issues.

Then Western Australia will point out, in regards to the Crimes Act, that the Secession Act is a creature of the Western Australian Parliament. As a result, it would be (& the leaders of WA involved with secession) protected by Parliamentary Privilege. As a result, by their reckoning, the act of secession is exempt from the Crimes Act (1914) & thus they can't be charged with treachery &/or sedition.

Yet, even if these arguements fail, & the first paragraph of the Preamble is allowed into the Federal case, then Western Australia can counter-argue that their state isn't mentioned in the first paragraph. If they aren't mentioned, then they aren't required to abide by the principle that the Commonwealth, at least for their part, isn't "indissoluble".

The initial overall result favours the West Australians. Having said that, however, they are far from guaranteed that the High Court verdict will go their way. It'll really come down to the make-up of the Bench in all honesty & the skills of the legal teams involved. There is one little thing, however, which could balance if not tip the scales in the Feds favour. In 1935, Western Australia went to London seeking its approval to secede from the Commonwealth. London refused. Now the Feds could use that as precedence on the matter & so the verdict may go in favour of the Commonwealth. Overall, though, I'd still give the West a 50-60% chance.


Scarecrow said:
besides some questionable economic gains, there realy isnt much of a reason for WA secession, although WA especialy Perth has always (fro some reason) seemed to be the most english Part of the Commonwealth, so POD is the the New Guard isnt so gung ho British Empire, and wants a republic cos of the crap treatment of Aussie troops in WWI. they win power in the East, but WA wants to stick in the EMpire, and secedes to become and indepenent dominion of the Empire.


A better POD is that London, in 1935, has a different mind on the matter & permits secession. But I doubt it as it was London in 1900 who told Forrest to either join the Commonwealth or lose the Premiership & that they'd appoint someone who would allow WA join instead.
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
For the rugby team name, try "Irritating Western Barbarians." Or, "Sand-Logged Kangaroo Buggers." Either suits me, as both of them are accurate.


You could also call them the "Blow Flies" :D

Been to Western Australia have you? :confused:
 
Romulus Augustulus's Law: As time goes on, any discussion about an ancient people discovering a continent or area nominally unknown to that ancient people in question will shift in focus from discussing the effects of such an event to traditional stereotypes and prejudices of the modern day dwellers of that region, e.g. a discussion about Romans in Australia will eventually become mudslinging between Australians from the western and eastern portions of the continent, with occasional commentary on the side from a Washingtonian.
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
Romulus Augustulus's Law: As time goes on, any discussion about an ancient people discovering a continent or area nominally unknown to that ancient people in question will shift in focus from discussing the effects of such an event to traditional stereotypes and prejudices of the modern day dwellers of that region, e.g. a discussion about Romans in Australia will eventually become mudslinging between Australians from the western and eastern portions of the continent, with occasional commentary on the side from a Washingtonian.


Well that's more or less a normal day at AH.com :)


Romulus Augustulus said:
It was when I was in Fiji. And it involved a quantity of vomit so large and a smell so horrible, I'm not even going to try to describe it.


Well that's more or less a normal day for West Australians ;)
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
I think I'm going to support Western Australian independence, for the same reason(s) I wish that the South was seperate from the United States.


I guess it must appear strange that we Australians have all these divisions like in the States...
 
Previously, I thought Aussies were just a hive with no discernible individuals. Now, I know it's two hives, one of which has a much higher average IQ for its members, even though it's nineteen times the size of the other one.
 
Well it's more like 6 hives. It's actually a miracle the country ever got together. In 1900 three of the states more or less rejected the commonwealth. The West, as has already been stated, Queensland rejected it because they didn't like the way the Senate was set-up, & my state because it appeared that Victoria was favoured more than New South Wales. It looked like only Victoria, South Australia & Tasmania might, but they were still bickering between themselves over various things
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
Hmm...How about having Australia join the United States?


Well, thanks to the current Australian government, that's more or less the case now in a de facto manner. Alas we don't get the chance to vote in the US elections :(
 
Ahh, yes. That brings up the number of US vassals to, and not including Australia, those vassals are the United Kingdom, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, and Panama, which brings up the number of American vassals to 11. Ahh...
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
Ahh, yes. That brings up the number of US vassals to, and not including Australia, those vassals are the United Kingdom, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, and Panama, which brings up the number of American vassals to 11. Ahh...


Oh we've been one since 1943. Only in 1972-75 was there a hick-up in the vassal status.
 
If I ever get elected president, remind me to make eastern Australia a state, and also remind me to saw off western Australia and let it drift off and sink in the Southern Ocean.
 
Romulus Augustulus said:
If I ever get elected president, remind me to make eastern Australia a state, and also remind me to saw off western Australia and let it drift off and sink in the Southern Ocean.


That be 18 million voters. How many Election College seats would we get for that?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
DMA said:
That be 18 million voters. How many Election College seats would we get for that?
You'd be comparable to New York State, which currently has 31. There would be some shifting around in the electoral college but you'd definitely be the 4th most populous state.
 
Ehh...How about...oh...say...12 electoral votes for East Australia, and one vote for West Australia. Now, we'd have eighteen votes for Canada and Mexico. The UK would have about 40.
 
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