Romano-Britains repulse the Saxon invasions

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
While this accurate, it probably wasnt as peaceful as you make it seem, just based on the genetic differences between the English and Welsh.

I wouldn't worry too much about genetic differences, there are many explanations that could work for it, and we have no proof that a similar division didn't already exist in the Roman period. Geneticists state hypotheses with much more confidence than they should.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
The question is about the whole Anglo-Saxon migration into Roman Britannia that puzzles me is why there are so few Britonnic words in Old English. Although there is a debate on what influence Britonnic had on other aspects of the English language.

Also there is the culture of Anglo-Saxon England which is pretty much Germanic with very little if any Britonnic influence. That points the Anglo-Saxon migrations to Britannia being a pretty major one.
 
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The question is about the whole Anglo-Saxon migration into Roman Britannia that puzzles me is why there are so few Britonnic words in Old English. Although there is a debate on what influence Britonnic had on other aspects of the English language.

Is it possible that britonnic affected the grammar or pronunciations of old english?
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Is it possible that britonnic affected the grammar or pronunciations of old english?

Both, that is what the debate is about among linguists. For a long time for example the shift of English from a highly inflected to highly analytic language was caused by the interaction of Anglo-Saxons and Norse in the Danelaw (in particular Yorkshire). It is argued those changes started there and moved to other parts of England later on. However Britonnic language survived for a longer in Yorkshire and especially west of the Pennines than it did in the South of England. Also the Britonnic kingdom of Elmet in present day Yorkshire survived until the early 7th century.
 
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Is it possible that britonnic affected the grammar or pronunciations of old english?
In addition to what @Teejay says the argument is more "how much did it it affect?" rather than "did it?"
Influence seems to be more in syntax than vocabulary - examples often cited are the progressive mood (roughly "is verbing") and increased use of "do" as an auxiliary (e.g. Do you read? Vs Read you?)
Loanwords tend to occur for objects and ideas not already present in the language with the latter affected by status.
With there not being much major difference between West Germanic and Brittonic peasants apart from place names it's hard to see much borrowing lasting. Add in a common language among the elite, Latin, and one can see any borrowing between them being likely Latin.
 
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152#pgen.1007152.s002

The largest single component of modern English DNA is Germanic. Even traditionally Brythonic regions like Elmet/Cumbria cluster over 50% Anglo-Saxon/SSE

This is impossible to square with the theory that only the aristocracy changed, it was clearly a mass migration and population replacement - in agreement with the primary sources which state for instance that the entire Anglii tribe upped sticks and moved over.
 
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152#pgen.1007152.s002

The largest single component of modern English DNA is Germanic. Even traditionally Brythonic regions like Elmet/Cumbria cluster over 50% Anglo-Saxon/SSE

This is impossible to square with the theory that only the aristocracy changed, it was clearly a mass migration and population replacement - in agreement with the primary sources which state for instance that the entire Anglii tribe upped sticks and moved over.
As far as I'm aware noone in this thread is promoting an elite replacement only theory, nor is such a theory among the primary ones of historians.
 
The question is about the whole Anglo-Saxon migration into Roman Britannia that puzzles me is why there are so few Britonnic words in Old English. Although there is a debate on what influence Britonnic had on other aspects of the English language.

Also there is the culture of Anglo-Saxon England which is pretty much Germanic with very little if any Britonnic influence. That points the Anglo-Saxon migrations to Britannia being a pretty major one.

The relationship between language/culture and ancestry can be complicated. The Gauls were not likely replaced en masse by Romans, but there are very few Gaulish words in French.
 
So, with regards to centralizing power;

I think it would help if they replicated/kept the diocese set up by the empire, to an extent. ie; having (relatively) large provinces under the control of a civil governor, and each having a dux to lead the military. Then together they can choose their war leader.

Im aware that some sort of council chose vortigern, and then later Ambrosius Aurelianus, but i figure that council consisted of all those petty kingdoms brittania broke down into. In a smaller, more centralized council and government, Aurelianus has a better chance to be their leader from the start, imo
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152#pgen.1007152.s002

The largest single component of modern English DNA is Germanic. Even traditionally Brythonic regions like Elmet/Cumbria cluster over 50% Anglo-Saxon/SSE

This is impossible to square with the theory that only the aristocracy changed, it was clearly a mass migration and population replacement - in agreement with the primary sources which state for instance that the entire Anglii tribe upped sticks and moved over.

There's no such thing as Germanic DNA. It's like saying 16.8% of British music is purple. BTW, could you cite the bit that you mean rather than the whole paper? I've looked through it and I can't find the "over 50%" bit, which wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.
 
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Teejay

Gone Fishin'
The relationship between language/culture and ancestry can be complicated. The Gauls were not likely replaced en masse by Romans, but there are very few Gaulish words in French.

There are considerable more Gaulish words in French than Britonnic words in Old English.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Really? There are only about 50-100 such words in French.

That is more than just about a dozen Britonnic words in Old English, also there are some phonological influence what occurred in Old French which could be attributed to Gaulish speakers switching over to Proto French.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
There are considerable more Gaulish words in French than Britonnic words in Old English.

But there is considerably more Celtic grammatical influence on English than on French. Or at least it is more provable, thanks to Brittonic's convenient loss of case and inflection around 500 AD.
 
As far as I'm aware noone in this thread is promoting an elite replacement only theory, nor is such a theory among the primary ones of historians.

I thought I saw someone advocating it upthread.

By 'Primary source' I meant 'Sources writing close to the period in question' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source

I can't recall the writer in question unfortunately - think it *may* have been Gildas - but I'm certain I remember reading a period writer stating that the entire Anglii tribe had left it's previous homeland - which would appear to be backed up by the degree of genetic influence from Anglo-Saxon populations in Britain generally and England specifically.

There's no such thing as Germanic DNA. It's like saying 16.8% of British music is purple. BTW, could you cite the bit that you mean rather than the whole paper? I've looked through it and I can't find the "over 50%" bit, which wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

I apologise for the non-academic language - would be more accurate to say 'More than 50% of genetic contribution (based on a cross section of SNP's/ADMIXTURE component) in the South East England cluster maps to Anglo Saxon sources'

The figure in question is S8 Fig: https://ndownloader.figshare.com/files/10308105

More than half of the contribution for the SSE group is red.

Obviously all variation is clinal, this is just a cluster analysis, all Northwestern Europeans descend from the same Indo-european - Bell-beaker - Ancestral Western Hunter gatherer mix etc. etc.

I am a layman, not a professional geneticist, so if I'm misinterpreting something please let me know.
 
thought I saw someone advocating it upthread.
Then please quote them in future so it's clear what you are arguing against as it read like a strawman argument.

By 'Primary source' I meant 'Sources writing close to the period in question' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
My use of primary was not in reference to primary sources but that your stated "only elite replacement theory" is not prominent among reputable historians.

No one is disputing a mass migration happened. I would however dispute that the entire Anglii "tribe" moved solely to Britain, if that is what you are arguing.
I would also argue that your "50+% Germanic" statement backs up the theory that it wasn't total replacement of the Romano-Britons either. That's one of the reasons why the low amount of Brittonic in Old and Modern English is so intriguing.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
I apologise for the non-academic language - would be more accurate to say 'More than 50% of genetic contribution (based on a cross section of SNP's/ADMIXTURE component) in the South East England cluster maps to Anglo Saxon sources'

The figure in question is S8 Fig: https://ndownloader.figshare.com/files/10308105

More than half of the contribution for the SSE group is red.

Obviously all variation is clinal, this is just a cluster analysis, all Northwestern Europeans descend from the same Indo-european - Bell-beaker - Ancestral Western Hunter gatherer mix etc. etc.

I am a layman, not a professional geneticist, so if I'm misinterpreting something please let me know.

It's hard to interpret that without the codes, but to me it rather seems that the individuals in the Ancient British samples are more similar to present English populations than the "AS" ones are. This is especially interesting given we have had three events where continental immigrants had preferential mating and infant survival situations; AS, Norse and Norman. It definitely seems to show considerable Brittonic survival in England.
 
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But there is considerably more Celtic grammatical influence on English than on French. Or at least it is more provable, thanks to Brittonic's convenient loss of case and inflection around 500 AD.

Old English didn't lose its case endings until a couple of centuries after the Anglo-Saxon conquests, making it unlikely that this was the result of Celtic influence.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
Old English didn't lose its case endings until a couple of centuries after the Anglo-Saxon conquests, making it unlikely that this was the result of Celtic influence.

I would dispute that, as would most European linguists and the World's go-to-creolist-of-choice, McWhorter. The Northumbrian dialect of Old English had already begun to lose case endings at the point it began to be written down, and the written dialect was that used by elites. Popular Old English is likely to have been much more strongly influenced by Brittonic, given we have historical, linguistic and onomastic evidence for bilingualism between Brittonic and AS. It seems exceptionally unlikely, in the circumstances, that both languages lost their nominal and adjectival inflection, in addition to variability of articles by coincidence. They also share significant innovations, particularly it-clefting, the Northern Subject Rule (which show up in Old English but are not of Germanic origin), and do-periphrasis, which appears in texts in Middle English, but is attested in 8th century Welsh.

In any other language contact situation, the case for influence would be considered water-tight. But of course, English is special, as are English angliciists.
 
Hmm, the case endings part seems overstated but then I don't have any pre Danelaw experience of Northumbrian Anglian. Post Danelaw there was certainly a large amount of case dropping, which I had attributed to creolist influence of Old Danish so I can see that the Cumbric/North Brittonic dialects would have similar if lesser impact .
 
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