Call me westeurocentric, :p but I'm not seeing why any of this causes western Europe to fail hard: it's not that it _couldn't_, but I'm not really seeing it flow naturally from the POD...

This is exactly what I was thinking.

It seems that the strength and expansion of Romania had somehow driven Muslims west and north, from the period where Italy was apparently a Muslim-ruled zone comparable to Andalusia, before further Romanian expansion absorbed and theologically cleansed both of these in turn, and the Muslim refugees from these conquests moved north--those who did not go west across the Atlantic anyway.

I think we need some elaboration how that movement led to the semi-Islamification of northern Europe, rather than as I would suppose that region being largely denied as refuge. I can see that prior to the fall of Italy and Iberia to the Romanians, some Latin states would have had alliances or anyway trade relations with these Muslim powers and thus those specific states might have given refuge, but I'd think even the rulers of those states would have had terms and conditions for the refugees--and maybe here is where the quasi-millet system you describe as so dysfunctional arose.

But I'd also think other European states would not have had such ties, not directly anyway, and yet not such close ties to Romania as to simply fall into the Romanian system--or perhaps no ties at all. The refugees would not find any welcome there at all, not at first anyway.

Now it is correct that Europe, away from the Mediterranean shores that Romania resumes control of, was indeed a backwater throughout most of recorded history. It didn't offer many high-value resources to exchange in global trade--some metals such as tin that could be gotten elsewhere; amber, which was pretty unique but hardly a jewel of strategic importance; and otherwise mostly slaves were Europe's exports as late as the early Middle Ages. And it is peripheral, tending to get the "news" of new technologies last. Its climate was poorly adapted to the primary crops and domestic animals of the ancient agricultural heartlands; it took time to develop the techniques of agriculture to the point where large populations could be sustained. OTL of course a huge shot in the arm came from the discovery and conquest of the New World, which among other things introduced numerous new crops--this was generally true all over the Old World of course. (Which suggests that even if Latin Europe has no hegemony over the New World to speak of--the sole exception being Scandinavian polities--the crops would still filter over).

But OTL by the High Middle Ages, a new pattern of civilization had developed that greatly expanded the exploitation of European potentials. On the whole, the strength and growth of Romania would not have preempted the High Middle Ages in most of Europe. Of course it did impact Italy, critically and early, and based on OTL sequences, disrupting the role Italy played in the developing medieval Latin Christendom could indeed have dire consequences.

However, while Italy was precocious and exemplary, I don't think even steamrollering over it twice would abort the overall development, though it would change it considerably.

A major thing I think I have already talked about many months ago would be atomizing the formerly Roman Church, by first Muslims then Romanians displacing the Papacy from its purported seat of power in Rome. Presumably the Curia would run into exile, to Avignon or someplace else, while first the Muslims then perhaps the Romanians would set up their own Bishops of Rome to compete. I'd think these puppets would not even be called "Popes" by anyone since neither Muslims nor Romanians are interested in perpetuating any sweeping claims of the Roman patriarch having special authority, nor would factions among the Latins be interested, generally, in kowtowing to such a figure. (Unless perhaps diplomatic contingencies lead them to seek to flatter either the Rum Emir or the Roman Emperor--even then, the alienness of the new ecclesiastic regime in Rome would make it difficult to simply shift allegiance tither). What would be schismatic, in Latin Europe, would be the fact that with no one claimant among Latins to the title of Pope being able to reinforce it by actually occupying Rome, the thing becomes a free-for-all, with any dissident who can get the support of any significant secular power able to gin up some kind of claim to be the true successor of Peter. Thus Latin Europe would be thrown into a more or less Protestant condition, with lots of locally supported church hierarchies that don't typically reach past the secular jurisdiction of a patron monarch (or republic, whatever).

If a large number of Latin powers do decide that they need and want a centralized universal church, they could cooperate in settling their favored claimant to the Petrine succession in a chosen See in Exile, say Trier, which was a Roman Empire capital at one time, or Aachen, Charlemagne's nominal capital. (But was Charlemagne himself already butterflied in this TL?)

Aside from the role the Roman Church played in the development of medieval civilization, is Europe otherwise crippled? I'd say no, not in the medieval timeframe; sufficient energy and ingenuity would exist north of the Alps to essentially reproduce the sort of progress the continent did enjoy under OTL conditions.

But, going forward from there, the most the Middle Ages achieved in terms of Europe's standing on the global stage was to make it less backward--still, as of say 1400, an objective surveyor of Earth's peoples probably would not rank the region very highly compared to places like China or India.

What vaulted Europe from a second-rate backwater to the world-ruling titan it collectively was in the early 20th century was the co-development of global trade and with it, empires, with capitalist industrialism.

Here, it would seem that the Muslim Andalusians played the role of OTL Portugal and Spain in developing the routes around Africa and then stumbling upon the New World. Had Romania been stymied in conquering Iberia, I could still see Latin Christian Europe piggy-backing on an Andalusian expansion, for Andalusia itself would not have had the demographics to completely monopolize either direction of expansion. Presumably some Latin Christian states would have good relations with al-Andalus and been trade partners, serving at the very least as markets for goods an Andalusian monopoly brings in from both the Orient and the New World. In these circumstances, capital comparable to what the Spanish Empire of the Indies brought in might have served to assist the expansion and development of European industry, which transformed the utility of European resources, and underlaid a huge demographic boom as well.

However, in this TL, it seems that some time not too long after the Andalusians find footholds in the New World, the Romanians come in in full force and conquer all of Iberia, aborting the Andalusian trade empire and driving the survivors of this invasion either north into Europe or west to new settlements across the Atlantic.

Now I have to wonder, if the Romanians had ships good enough to match the presumable Andalusian defenders on the sea approaches, why did they not pursue their fleeing enemies across the Atlantic to deny them refuge there, and even if trying to smoke out all refugees was a fool's errand, at any rate establish bases of their own in the Caribbean or on other western shores, so as to cut in to the valuable trade in New World goods, not to mention a missionary program to pre-empt Islamization of the whole western hemisphere? Could it be that Romanian navigation was somewhat backward and they didn't attack by sea, but marched overland across the northwest Med shoreline to invade from the northeast? In that case I can see how the Andalusians would find safe respite overseas, and Romania fails to move into the New World in any force.

In this scenario (or the more likely one where Romania goes on west) Andalusian trade around Africa is broken because the Romanians can move out of the Red Sea to intercept trade to India and points east. But it seems that here the Romanians failed to pursue into the New World for whatever reason, leaving the Andalusians to recover and expand in the Western Hemisphere.

The thing about the OTL Iberian powers, and subsequent northern Europeans horning in, was that they all sought to control both the eastern and the American routes. And it was the Eastern goods that were generally more valuable in Europe, though of course American silver and gold were very important too. Here, even if the Romanians leave the Andalusian refugees in the New World alone, they control the lucrative eastern trade, via a more direct route along the Med and Red Seas or out of Mesopotamian ports on the Persian Gulf. No Europeans have a foothold in the Indian Ocean or points east of there but the Romanians. The Spanish were able to extort precious metals by controlling a sweeping Empire of the Indies that reduced all the peoples they came in contact with to subjugation (or left them outside of their interest). The exiled Andalusians cannot exercise that kind of hegemony; they might pull a Cortez and take over Mexico, but they must rule it in cooperation with local allies; they can't call on reinforcements. And even if they can concentrate on developing trade goods, they have no one to trade with but the Latin Europeans or the hated Romanians. (Or perhaps West Africa). They can't acquire the precious metals as rapidly and rapaciously as the Spanish did, and they can't offer Eastern spices, silks and so forth in the package. Because Latin Europe is not in control of New World resources and not in competition to tap into the Eastern trade directly, northern Europe is not getting rich nearly as fast as OTL, and has relatively little to offer the Andalusians, who must either secure access to basic subsistence in the western lands for themselves or perish. Aside from silver and gold, they could offer to trade in chocolate and other uniquely New World products, but they are concentrating on establishing themselves on a survival basis on new shores, and the Europeans are not rich enough to buy sugar or chocolate or other western goods in great quantity.

Thus, from the sixteenth century on, relative to OTL Europe is starved and eclipsed, even if domestic industry still has potential to develop it is starved of capital. There is still some, but much less than OTL. Even if they enjoy very cordial relations with the Andalusian colonies in the west, these are initially very small and marginal, and far away. The basis for the development of European merchant marines and navies is much stunted, and we can see how it is that even though at any rate the New World is just sitting there, the European kingdoms don't generally make a huge effort to seize them. OTL getting control of the Americas was a rather slow process after all. By 1700 it was well under way, but that was after 200 years of domination of world trade, which is not happening here.

I started this post doubting that Europe would remain a backwater, but now that I am finishing it, I wonder rather how it could ever have been as the author suggests that Europe ever did have a "moment in the sun." With the industrial revolution stunted in northern Europe and I would guess happening in Romania instead, it seems rather a wonder that the Romanians did not simply move on north from their hold along the Med and reconquer at least to the bounds that the ancient original Roman Empire held in the west, perhaps leaving Britain alone but compensating by seizing much of Germany instead, to round out subjugation of France and the Lowlands. I wouldn't see that happening in one massive sweep of fanatical conquest for its own sake, but rather as the outcome of successive border squabbles. Once Romania is well on the way to industrialization, say when it reaches the general sort of capabilities (in some heartland regions in the empire if not generally throughout it) of say OTL Britain in 1800, its forces, superior in both numbers and technique and with much deeper logistical pockets, ought to be able to crush any single European realm. So say a quarrel with France over the border somewhere in the Midi ought to lead in very short order either to the Parisian regime seeing their certain doom and coming to terms that effectively annex the realm (minus concessions) to the Romanian sphere, or stubborn resistance leads to defeat in detail and the outright annexation of the whole kingdom.

In medieval days, such an outcome would be harder for the Romanians to accomplish and it would leave them to digest a poison pill of Latin Christians. In a later context though I'd think an industrializing Empire would become more cynical and politic about religious policy, and conciliate its new provinces with concessions on religious rite--as long as the high officials of the French Rite answer to the Patriarch of Constantinople and/or the Emperor. If the Latin churches, once deprived of the seat of Rome for the Pope, had indeed fragmented into so many national churches, taking over the nation means taking over the locally established church.

An industrialized Empire that can conquer and assimilate France would then come into contact and conflict with the Lowlands, parts of Germany, and across the Channel Britain as well. If the European nations generally are either not industrializing at all or doing so only on a capital-starved shoestring, I'd think that one by one they'd fall. Perhaps Britain, being able to concentrate on naval power, in alliance with some northern power such as the strongest Scandinavian powers, might hold out, especially if the latter have cashed in on the prospects of the New World--though we are told the Scandinavians hold only marginal coastal claims; to be a strong rival of the Empire I'd think they'd have needed to penetrate up the Saint Lawrence and on to the Great Lakes. Since they didn't apparently do that, I have to doubt the ability of any European coalition to command enough industrial power to stand long against Romanian force.

So I've reversed my question now--why doesn't Romania rule all of Europe by now, from the northern cape of Norway all the way down to the Med? Or at least from the Med to the Baltic?
 
Interesting speculations, Shevek23. Could be the Romanians just got overextended for a long time in the east which discouraged adventures in the west.

Also, combining the fact that the Mediterranean is a lot poorer in industrial raw materials (coal in particular) than North Europe, which would probably slow Romanian industrialization, with the fact that scientific and industrial advances would tend to flow more easily between the Latin west and the Romanian East than between Islam and Christianity OTL, even a relatively poor and backwards Latin Europe might be able to catch up in time to become a fairly tough nut to crack.

There is some indication that the Muslim states of the new world form a fairly powerful block: the spread of Islamic religion and technology may have allowed large-scale state building and some form of modernization in the New World, as well, even if by this point the European and North African Muslims only form a small part of the local gene pool. (Indeed, given the Islam-Latin Christian reconciliation of OTL, by "now" western Europe may have been sending part of its population surplus to the Americas for a couple centuries now, giving the Islamic Americas a substantial Latin Christian minority).

And Russia is still a bit of a wild card: it has been indicated that they're more modernized than western Europe, but what their relation is to the Empire and the Latins is unclear.
 
@Shevek and B_Munro: So I haven't forgotten any of the stuff you guys have said, but never got time to reply due to real life getting in the way. Will give a proper reply after this update, but I will say that you guys are collectively converging onto my current ideas about the "West" :D

@All: New update in the next few mins. Lemme see how formatting goes.....

OK-done! Tried something new this time, with an actually 11th Cnetury POV. Tell me how badly that went.
Special credits to Daesh for making everyone hate Callinicum. Makes it a convenient place to develop all sorts of terrible ideologies without getting people to bash an eyelid.
 
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An Anatolian Interlude

Ἀνατολή: The Greek word for East or Sunrise.

June 1021, a hamlet five miles west of Ancyra, Roman Empire

Smoke rose from the chimney of a little house far away from the rest of the village, as the first lights of the invincible sun shone on the foremost province of the Roman Empire. The land of the sunrise would soon be bathed in the golden light of the new day, as its inhabitants would rise from their beds to head to the fields without any worry of being mauled by a marauding horde. This region of the Roman Empire had only known peace for the last two centuries, being even spared from the feeble Armenian attempts of the last decade. People could now afford to live far away from the village center proper if they sought the solitude, secure under the protection of their Basileus. There was no reason for the inhabitants of the village to believe that this day would be any less peaceful than its predecessors.


Until the first yell tore through the calm like a knife.

“You have done what?!” yelled a tall, burly man sitting in the kitchen of the house.

The thin younger man looked pale and nervous, but still firmly spoke “I enlisted, father and I ho---”

“After I explicitly told you not to! What did your mother and uncle think about this?”

“I did not tell them before actually registering with the recruiter, as I knew they would react this way.”

“Any sane person would! And I cannot believe that you would dare go behind my back to try to do this!”

“Well, I have and there is nothing any of you could do to stop it! The law says so!”

The older man stepped forward and it seemed like he was about to strike the younger, who still defiantly stood. A muffled sob came from the other side of the room, where a small woman sat, dabbling her eyes with a piece of cloth. The older man turned to her, his face softening briefly. It hardened again, but he stepped back from the other man, and took a deep breath. It was a while before he spoke again, but his voice was calmer this time.

“Why did you not tell me yesterday?”

The woman was the one to reply this time. “Because we knew you would react like this! I wanted you to have one night of peace after coming back from Egypt.”

True, and the older man was grateful for that. It had however not softened the blow one bit.

“Do you realize what you have done?” he said, turning to face the younger man. “What will happen to the fields now? Were you planning to abandon your mother and brothers to till it alone?”

“Uncle spoke with the recruiter, and he agreed that I would only join next year. Nikos will be sixteen then, and he could be the man of the house. That does not matter now that you are back though!”

This was true, and the older man knew that his wife and children would be materially fine even without their eldest. The people were decent hardworking folks and predatory dynatoi had not been able to sink their claws in this region, afraid of what the Basileus might do to them. Yet, that did not change the fact that he had never desired a military career for any of his sons. He briefly considered forgiving the boy, after all he was unlikely to be killed in battle now that the Empire sought peace. But he remembered the younger ones, so willing to follow in the footsteps of their older brother and hardened his heart.

“I won this land through service to the Emperor. You will not inherit any land you refuse to till. You may remain here as our guest till the time comes for you to leave for Istanbul, but you will give up your inheritance then. This shall all go to your brothers who will not be as foolish enough to follow you in your folly.”

The younger man looked like he had expected it, and in fact even looked relieved that it was the worst that could happen.

“Thats fair, but the recruiter said that they would give me land in Egypt when I will be done. So this works out better for all of us,” said he, shrugging.

The older man wanted to laugh, tell the naive boy how much tagmata recruiters exaggerated in order to tempt young men to join. But he knew that these stories had probably not been lies. Romania was no longer fighting wars with uncertain rewards but had triumphed over her foes. That had resulted in more fertile land than people to hold it, and so the Empire could afford to dole out large chunks to military recruits without fear of running out in the foreseeable future.

In fact, he darkly thought, that's why they still need a large army. But he forced himself to stop heading in that direction, for it would inevitably remind of him Egypt. Where the boy will probably be sent.

Pent up anger rose within him and he lashed out before realizing it was a bad idea. “You know nothing you fool! You will not be winning any glory or treasure by enlisting, and be merely reduced to a glorified town guard!”

“Why?” the young man said angrily. “Because I am not you? An elite member of the Orphans? The great Peter? I know that you never felt I measured up, and that's why you tried to stop me from joining to avoid sullying your reputation! But guess what, father? I do not care what you think. You are a fine one to talk about leaving the family behind, seeing that you spent most of the last decade in Egypt! We grew up without you, and I dare say that I no longer give a damn about your opinion!”

He wanted to yell back, remind John that they’d be lucky to be a beggar if it was not for him serving in the Orphans. But he could not yell back at the boy, not when memories of scenes from Alexandria flooded his head. Not after cutting down so many children of his age, begging food and pleading for mercy. I promised I will not be that man anymore, but I do not trust myself to remain in control.

A decade ago, John ran out of the house to hide in the countryside after being reprimanded. Yet he was the one to now stand his ground, and Peter was the one to leave, hoping that the air would clear his mind enough for a rational discussion.

Before he stepped out of the house, he heard a contrite voice calling back

“Father, I did not mean to-”

“It's fine, you are a man grown and can make your own decisions. We will discuss the details regarding your departure later.”

It was most certainly not fine, not when his son was going to waste his life after so much effort he had put in to prevent that. And lost him in the process, I am a stranger in my own home. He no longer truly had a right to chastise John based on only ties of blood, not when he knew so little about his firstborn. But those dark thoughts did not have to be spoken of in their home, and he wandered about the countryside instead, hoping to calm down.

He looked up to see that his feet had taken him to the village church, and Father Paul was standing outside in the sun. The priest looked at him and smiled, and beckoned him inside. He briefly debated whether it was a good idea to follow or not, but ultimately decided to go ahead. After all, maybe confessing my sins will make God help me forget. Hellfire was a given, he knew---but maybe his remaining days could be a bit more peaceful.


“I had planned to visit yesterday, but thought you would like some time with your wife and children first”, spoke the priest after they were both seated in his chambers.

“I wish you had in fact come along. Might have helped me keep my temper with John”, he said, failing to keep the accusing tone out of his voice.

“I tried Peter, but he chose to run out to the village when I was visiting your wife. It was difficult for me to catch up”, replied the priestly sadly, looking at his feet.

The anger evaporated from him as he remembered that day in Syria, watching helplessly as the soldier smashed Paul’s leg. Now I am blaming him too, after I swore to protect him from harm. “I’m sorry, I should not have-”

“Don’t worry about it, I was quite unhappy about the situation too. Besides, I know that you are on the edge. War does that to you.”

“You know me too well, brother.”

“Well, I have certainly known you longer than anyone else.”

“It was terrifying, it felt like Sicily all over again but worse. They were not starving in that blasted island at least, but here in Egypt there were so many hungry people. Children too, you could see their bones even if they were alive, and the smell, the smell of death that filled everything…”

“I thought the situation had improved recently?”

“It has, after Doukas took charge from that bastard Komnenos. But it is still terrible. There are hundreds of villages just filled with bones and not a living soul. The newcomers are just trampling on them, taking over their houses to make farms without any regard for those who lived there once.”

“Worse than Syria?”

This he could not honestly say. “Perhaps. Not for my person, but it seemed like that.”

“Good. The Saracens deserve it.”

He looked up into the fire smoldering in his brother's eyes, and hesitated before adding more fuel to it. Had anyone else in the village had said such things, he’d have dared them to actually first kill a man and then repeat those words. But not to his brother, a fellow sufferer of the horrors of Kallinikos.

“Many were Christians though. Heretics, but Christian nonetheless. No different from our parents.”

The priest stood up and walked to the window. “May the lord have mercy on their souls. But it could not be helped.”

Could it not? He had once thought so too, once upon a time. But now he was less sure. Intellectually he understood what the government was trying to do, but he could not bring himself to agree to it.

“For the record, I do agree that killing outside the battlefield is improper, even if it a Saracen”, added Paul. “But criminals receive no mercy.”

“We were criminals too, by that measure,” he whispered, as the memories flooded in again.

Their father had been a prosperous merchant at Kallinikos (then called Ar-Raqqa), a Syrian Christian who straddled the Roman and Islamic worlds while trading between them. He had high hopes for his three sons, believing that the Emir would have to give more power to non-Chalcedonian Christians in order to halt the seemingly inevitable Roman advance. Then, he reasoned that his eldest, John could inherit the business, Paul in the middle could become a soldier and young Peter a priest. But Basil had sacked Baghdad, and there were very few people in Kallinikos prepared to defend the rich merchant from the mob. Peter had been the only one to escape without permanent damage, and Paul had escaped with only the cost of his leg on account of the absentee John appearing and attacking the soldier “playing” with him. The poor fool had lost his life of course, but his brothers had made it out alive, to hide in the streets. They had begged and stolen food to survive, while desperately trying to find a caravan willing to take two penniless kids to Antioch or Kaisaria, where they could hide under the purple cloak of the Empire.

They never got the chance. The Empire came to them before that, with Kallinikos’ doors being forced open by the Emperor’s men. They were too late to save the remaining Christians of the city though, as the Saracens went on one final preemptive strike, fearing what would happen to them once the Romans entered the City. Ironically, the Jewish district proved to be the safest place for people like the brothers who merely wanted to hide and sit out the conflict. Things did not get better after the Roman victory though, despite Paul’s hopeful belief that their property would now be restored to them. They had even tried to petition the Emperor but had been laughed out by the guards before getting anywhere close. There was another riot soon after, and their house burned, along with their final hopes. Food was scarce in the City as the soldiers sucked most of it up, forcing them to steal from the Romans. They were lucky the first two times, but not the third.

“Well, well, well. Seems like we have two little thieves here. Uncircumcised too, trying to steal food from good Christian soldiers risking their lives for such miserable scum. You know what the Saracens do to people like you? Chop off their hands. Now, I might be a faithful follower of Jesus, but I think they had the right idea in these parts. Both your hands go off, and maybe your nuts too, so that filth like you don’t breed and spre-”

The crowd surrounding them suddenly broke apart as a man in purple rode by, stopping the soldier in the middle of his rant. Some quick words were spoken in Greek, and their persecutor turned as white as a sheet. Two other men had stepped forth, freed the boys and took them to a small tent. An Aramaic speaker came in soon after with some food, and told the boys to get clean. Apparently they had caught the fancy of the Autocrat of the Romans, and they were ordered to be present in his tent after dinner.

Their first encounter with the Emperor would be one that they would never forget, with those cold blue eyes boring into their heads. Peter’s Greek was too poor to keep up with the Emperor, and Paul, ever the arrogant fool, had refused an interpreter. This however had impressed Basil somehow, although he did not realize it then, helplessly watching his brother try to debate the Emperor over the ethics of starving people stealing food. Paul’s despondent face in the end indicated that their fate was grim, but the Emperor had finally turned to him and asked him what he thought about the whole situation. He did not know what had come over him at that moment, but his lack of sophistication compared to Paul shone through as he muttered in broken Greek that he was not stealing military supplies since he intended to join it in the future. It had been a thought in his mind ever since their family had died, a desire to have enough power to be safe from Saracens, like Basil’s men.

Basil clearly looked taken aback at that statement and asked him in slow, broken Aramaic if he had understood what he was saying. That was the only time Peter had shown defiance to the Emperor, replying in Greek that not only did he understand what his statement, but also felt that he could be a better warrior than those who have hidden from the Saracens in Anatolia for centuries. Paul’s horrified shriek made him realize that he had probably committed a capital offense with his disrespect, but he could not bring himself to care, as he demanded that either the Emperor put him to the sword or give him one.

The Emperor however stood up, and summoned the Aramaic speaking man from earlier, charging him to look after the brothers. He then turned to Peter, and told him that he would have the opportunity to earn their keep if he still wanted to be a soldier. He could even be sent to Constantinople for training if he did well.

“But what of my brother,” he had whispered, suddenly afraid for poor Paul.

Basil turned around and let his gaze linger on Paul for a long while before asking him he if he could run at all. Paul however did not reply, choosing to look down at the carpet. But the Emperor’s next question shocked both of them.

“You are literate, are you not?”

“Yes, Kyrie. But not well in Greek.”

“You’ll learn. For you will also have to do your duty to the Empire. As a man of cloth, not steel like your brother. But your role will be just as important in ending the Saracens”.


Thus he, the designated priest became the soldier and Paul, the chosen warrior became the priest. They had remained Kallinikos for two more weeks, as more and more children were brought in. Finally, they were all sent to Smyrna, in an old Church complex that the army had taken over. Lessons in Greek and Bible studies occurred after sunset, while they trained to be soldiers during the day. Paul was the exception on account of his disability, studying with the old priest throughout and assisting the other children with their night lessons. And thus were the Orphans born, to take up the sword for Basileia and Basileus.

For the longest time, he had tried to not forget Syria, believing that it will give him strength to do what was necessary. That resolve had lasted till he had to lead troops into the house of a Syracusian Saracen merchant, to purge the household of all its members. While the rush of battle had seen him through that incident, he had been barely able to function for a week afterwards, haunted by memories. He was only stirred by a reminder that the orders had come straight from the Emperor’s mouth, having been in the room when Basil gave his command. He had wondered how the man who had saved him had turned into a monster who acted the same way as the Saracens, only to realize that there was no difference. It was all a part of the Grand Strategy of the Emperor to restore the Empire to its rightful place in the world. He, Paul, their parents and the victims of Syracuse were only pawns in a century long chess game between the Lords of Constantinople and Mecca.

But he was not ungrateful. He was raised Greek and had married a Greek woman, tying him to the Empire. The ties of being saved from certain death by the Emperor however were far stronger, and he swore that night that he would follow Basil to the end for that alone. Even if the price was his soul, for no cost was too high to finally end this game, which could only happen if one side prevailed. Paul understood that too, leading to his cold pragmatism. But his soul was never at risk. Unlike the Emperor, Peter was not God’s viceregent and could not expect to be treated any different from the murderer he was on judgement day. It would however be enough if his children could be spared that fate.

Except your son will not be, spoke the treasonous voice in his head. He will be a part of the peacekeeping forces in Egypt. I wonder when the next riot will break out…

Paul however interrupted his reverie by turning around and finally choosing to reply back.

“We were. And I would have us executed for that if I were there. But tell me dear brother, did any of the people you put down shown even an iota of the courage you demonstrated to the most powerful man in the world?”

He had to admit, the answer was no. Never an attempt to join, only pleas and assaults. But a recruitment offer had never been made too, and he wondered how many would that have been swayed. Probably not that many. Komnenos wanted to kill as many Egyptians as possible. Even Doukas wants land for his plans and so is trying to starve them to death. Any fool could see that.

Their discussion however was broken up by frantic knocking on the door. Must be John, he thought, coming to say sorry, as he headed to open the door, seeing that he was closer to it that Paul.

It was not John however, but a villager by the name of George who was panting, almost as if he had run there.

“Someone is looking for you”, he told Paul. “Looks rich, and I thought you might like an advance warning, if this was about the recruiter for young John. Although I suppose his dad could handle it now”, he added turning to face Peter.

The man in question walked into the space behind that very moment, and Peter’s eyes went as wide as possible. It cannot be, he thought as he prepared to kneel.

“Now, now, I am no longer your officer and you can drop all these formalities”, spoke the old man clad in brown. “I was passing by this village for business, and thought I would drop by to meet your brother, who you mentioned so often in Egypt. I am quite glad to see that they let you return home as well”.

He felt faint in the head, and he almost missed Paul’s whisper

“Business?”

“Oh dear, I see that your brother has not mentioned who I am. My name is John Lekepenos, and I was his superior in the Orphans. I retired a few years ago, and own some warehouses in Constantinople”.


“Thank you for leading me here,” he added, turning to George. “Here is some compensation for your trouble”, he said, handling a solidus to the farmer who clearly could not believe his luck. “I think Peter would be able to help me from here”, clearly dismissing George, who quickly vanished, whistling at his good fortune.

“What do you think you are doing?” hissed Peter as soon as George was out of hearing.

“Visiting your brother. And don’t worry, I do have other men with me at the inn.”

“Not exactly the most inconspicuous of things to do!”

“They think I am just a rich merchant with associates.”

“Well,” Paul noted, stepping into the conversation. “Not if you continue to call it Constantinople instead of Istanbul.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“What truly brings you here, Basileus?”

“I was touring the countryside, and realized that you and Paul live here, prompting me to drop in for a quick chat.”

“I thought you were needed in Constantinople.”

“So did I.”

A heavy silence followed, as the brothers tried to parse the entirety of his his statement. He would not be alive if there was a coup.

“What happened?”, asked Peter, perhaps a bit too roughly. “If you need assistance, I am sure I can raise some people to he-”

“It's not like that. Don’t tell me you have to not felt it already.”

“He has,” Paul noted. “But is unable to come to terms with it.”

“Terms with what?”, Peter snapped, turning to his brother.

But it was the Emperor who replied. “Acknowledged that you are no longer necessary.”

It almost felt as if Basil had stabbed him, but he could not deny the truth in those words.

“You too?”, he whispered, turning to face the man.

“Yes indeed. I thought I was needed in Constantinople after Stephen died, only to see that the government moved on without me. Oh sure, they listen to me, rush to follow my commands and look at me with worshipful eyes. But they do not need me to rule, not like the way they needed since John Tzimiskes died. The cogwheels of the Empire may run smoothly without me, as they did in Egypt under Andronikos-although I was too vain to see that.”

“But surely you can find something to do?”

“Do what?,” the Emperor hissed. “I was raised in the Palace as a harmless princeling, to only watch Phokas and Tzimiskes in their glory in envy. I could have perhaps spent all my life idling away thus, if there had been a succession of generals who needed a symbol to legitimize their own power but lasted too little to actually dispose of me and Constantine. That was not to be , and the Fates demanded that I play this Game of Thrones-my damned lot since the day I was conceived. The only way I could win in the Romania of my youth was through war and by being damn good at it. I did what I had to in order to survive at first, but it is intoxicating you know, being brilliant and well respected for something. Especially when it also meant glory for the Empire. My whole career had been been driven by ambition, with the Empire as foil. I fought even when it might have been in the best interest of Romania to not to, yet I kept on gambling with high stakes, and each victory made me more willing to risk more.”

“ Why not keep gambling then? Be a second Alexander or Trajan?” interjected the priest.

“Because I am weak! I have finally hit a wall. I cannot risk this all now, by moving to the table one more time. The peace and prosperity you see is ephemeral, a house of cards that needs to be carefully supported-not jeopardized by war! That is why I am not in Constantinople but touring the countryside, reminding myself what I will risk if I fight again.”

“That’s not it” , Peter said, something about the Emperor finally becoming clear. “No matter what you want us to believe about us being pawns in some game of your ambition. I know that you love Romania, Basileus! You would not have fought for the poor farmers at a tremendous personal risk otherwise! And even if you might have forgotten, I do remember your sleepless nights in the Palace, trying to find some way to keep the soup kitchens running, even if it meant cutting down on your personal expenses. And you did not do it because you feared God. You did it for the people, no matter what you thought of them.”

“You would of course believe that, puppet. I had you raised well.”

“You want us to believe that, Basileus. But I think I finally know better. How old was Kaisar John when we first met?”

“Yo-you bastard!”

“I saw you at your weakest. You did it for her.”, he said, hitting now that he knew he had the Basileus cornered. “You could not have gone back to Antioch to face her if you let us die that day. That’s why we were spared. Oh, it was an elaborate game you played, trying to act hard and merciless to two scared little children. But you never intended to harm us at all, you would not have given us shelter if you did. You came up with the Orphans afterwards, and that gave you a convenient excuse to save the children without having to appear weak. But I see you now!”

“When did you realize?”, whispered the Emperor, suddenly looking every bit the broken old man that he was.

“Egypt. I was on guard duty the night you heard that the Empress had died. I saw you change right before my eyes. Previously you were casting out the enemy to the Saracens, but after that night you ordered to slaughter anything that did not yield.”

He had not been on the site when Cairo fell. But he had heard the stories of the frenzied old Emperor swinging a sword alongside his guards, even when the adversaries had been mere children-boys too young to have facial hair. And he had seen the slaves working on the memorial, while the Emperor’s hard glare fell on their backs, every bit as harsh as the Egyptian sun. Something had broken in the Emperor after his wife died. Previously he was bright as a flame, but it grew too bright, and consumed everything it touched. And now it was dim, barely burning in the blue eyes of the man in front of them.

They had nearly burned too. Many had in fact, been caught up with the murdering frenzy that their Emperor had sanctioned, knowing that their basest desires could be satisfied by Copt or Muslim without their officers intervening. Some of the officers had indeed been concerned, begged the Emperor to let them rein their men in, only to be spurned. He had learned more about his colleagues than he had cared to, seen how low man could sink. And his hands were just as drenched. Through inaction mostly, but the bloodlust had gotten the better of him at times too.

“All for the Empire” Paul noted. “However base were the motives, it has given us a strong Empire and God shall be grateful for that.”

“Not the reassurance I was looking for,”, Basil smiled weakly. “But thank you nonetheless.”

“Why did you come here if not for absolution?”, wondered the priest.

“That is between me and God, Paul. I appreciate the offer nonetheless. The real reason is that you will be leaving this village soon.”

“For?”

“Kallinikos. As bishop.”

“The Emperor does not handle these rout-”

“For military districts, yes, Kallinikos will be placed under the Army, to watch over the desert with the Saracens who are allied with us to keep others out. The city will finally be rebuilt in order to conduct operations in both the Levant and Mesopotamia as required. I need a local hand to help with that, one who understands the army and the need of discretion. One who knew Harun’s old city well.”

“This, this is an enormous promotion.”

“It is, for one so young as yourself. Antioch might even be within reach, if my successor wills. But I have faith in your ability to ensure that the Saracens do not fall into their earlier ways, and to bring the few remaining Mahometans to our side.”

“Successor? But Basileus, you still have years left?”

“Not in Romania.”

“Where then?”

“The East. Andronikos told me all manner of things about Cathay. That is a worthy goal for one such as myself. And the Empire will not have to suffer for my latest adventure.”

“Kaisar Michael has accepted his new role then?”

“Vice-regency over Mesopotamia and Armenia was all a suspected Nestorian could hope for, despite protests to the contrary. He did associate too much with the Assyrians to be a valid candidate for Constantinople.”

“Romania will not tolerate two crowns.”

“There is no alternative as of now. Which is why your role matters, Paul. I want you to understand that you must secure the loyalty of the tribes to Constantinople, not Nineveh. Kallinikos will be needed to defend Syria and Egypt if Michael or his son’s go rogue. All manner of heterodoxy will be tolerated, as long as the desert dwellers understand that service to Romania is service to God. If all goes well, Constantinople will settle this matter in the next few generations.”

Paul nodded. “When will I have to leave?”


“Within a month of the official letter, which may take another three months. The Church will handle the details. Apologies for breaking up your family,” said the Emperor, with actually a slight apologetic tone.

“No worries, we are all breaking up now. Peter’s son is enlisting.”

“Is he?” the Emperor said. “Do you know where he will go?”

Here is your chance. The Vice-regent of God can stop your son, if you would ask him to.

“I do not know. Hopefully not Egypt.”

“I wish him the best.”

“Will you be here for long?”

“Just the night. I intend to be in Trebizond by the month ends. Which reminds me, you promised your comrades that you will treat them to your wife’s cooking if they ever visited you. I think I will take advantage of your proposal.”

“Ex-excuse me? It is plain fare, and certainly not-”

“Any worse than barrack food. Come on, you have seen what I eat.”

That was true. “Will your men be coming?”

“Oh, no. I will not impose them on you.”

He turned to his brother now, “Will you be joining us, Paul?”

“Later perhaps, I have duties I still need to attend to. I’ll visit you at the Inn later, Basileus, should you require anything of me.”

Basil nodded, and then strode to the exit, with Peter rushing to catch up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I was sorry to hear that about Kaisar John,” Peter said, trying to make small talk as they started walking back towards his home. He did not really feel sorry for the spoilt brat who had grown up to be a drunkard, but he was still Basil’s son. Another loss, so soon. No parent should have to bury their own child.


“It was expected, he always drank too much. Luckily he had the decency to die before setting Italy aflame with some folly.”

Dismissive as ever. It was an open secret that the Emperor hated both his sons, and Michael’s exile East might have been forced less by the Patriarch than the Autocrat of the Romans himself. And he is probably too stupid to see it, with his hero worship and the honeyed words his father must have sung onto his ears. John at least knew, and despised that fact. Which is why he hated us so much, for we probably got more attention from his father than he ever did.

Still, he had expected the Emperor to have felt some sadness over the death of a child, but he supposed that Basil would not now show any more weakness, after the very public mourning of the Empress. I’d feel terrible if it was my John though…

There was however another matter that was of urgency, which had been gnawing on him as soon as he had left the Church. Why exactly did Basil want Paul? He must have had other alternatives, less heretical ones even….

“Why did you actually come here?”

“To convince Paul to return to Kallinikos. I honestly admit I did not imagine that you’d be back.”

“But why him? You could have probably found better men in Constantinople.”

“Objectively yes, but probably not as loyal.”

“You might not be aware, but he has certain unorthodox views.”

“Regarding separation of Church and state? I am aware, I was warned.”

“And yet you-”

“That played in his favor actually.”


Peter froze. That was not the reply he had expected.

“You hate priests. You despised having to rely on the Alexandrian Patriarch for anything, and ranted about it in private to Doukas and Komnenos.”

“That has not changed at the very least.”

“What did?”

“My personal preferences are irrelevant in face of what the Empire needs.”

“The Empire”, Peter hissed, “does not need more theokratia”.

“I wish you were right on that front, and I would have concurred if it was an ideal world we lived in.”

“The Syrians, Copts and like had been living under the rule of priests for centuries, surely you will agree the right thing to do is free them!”

“And replace it with what? They do not trust the Empire, and Basil wishes to look inwards. Without the constant presence of the Emperor in the East or the threat of Islam, who will tie these people to Constantinople? Certainly not the tax collector.”

“So you want the current state of affairs to continue?”

“I wish it was not necessary. But I cannot reverse the first Yarmouk.”

He understood what the Emperor meant. Christians in the Caliphate had few secular political figures left after the Empire’s collapse in the face of Islam. We were ruled by churchmen, who exploited us for their corrupt purposes, using God as an excuse, remembering his own early years and the fat priest who sucked his father’s money. Tearing up the Church in the East would be impossible, it was the symbol of free Christian people under the Muslim yoke and was their real basileus. And future Emperors would have even less clout in dealing with them than Basileos Soter, especially if they were as bureaucratic as Basil’s grandson. Slowly replacing it with Orthodoxy on the other hand will be simpler, than trying to end it in one fell swoop. Constantinople has money, and they don’t, and so they will lose a peaceful battle for the souls, especially if they are bribed right to look elsewhere. But for Orthodoxy to compete, it needs to take over the political role of the Church as well. Be the state itself, which is unpalatable for a trained theologer from the Aegean. Hence someone like Paul, who understood what the flock in the East wanted, and could sell it right. Someone to brainwash people into submission.

“So you will damn those people to the darkness of ignorance?”

“For now. Theokratia will end one day, when someone stronger than me faces it.”

“You better hope it does not take over the whole Empire by then.”

“It will not. The Aegean will last, and we will always return as long as we have the Sea.”

He was not convinced. Basil was playing with fire, and he hoped it would not burn them all. However, he realized that the Emperor could not be swayed, and so let it be.

“You are welcome to join me you know,” Basil suddenly said. “To Cathay. It will be very interesting. Lots of things no Roman has seen in centuries.”

“But you do not intend to return.”

“You may if you want to, but I will not-assuming I make it there in the first place. You are young, and may not feel the same way.”

“Plenty of risks along the way. Storms, pirates….”

“Indeed. But I knew some men who said they would follow me to death if it needed be.”

“This is not death though, what you are asking is far worse. Every man I served with would have willingly given their lives for you at Yarmouk, Alexandria or Italy. But to ask them to abandon their lives and families…”

“I know. Hence it is an offer, and not an order. If you think you can make a positive difference here, remain. If on the other hand you are weary of this world that does not need you anymore, you might in fact not mind an adventure. You have almost a year to decide, for the winds will not be right until next year.”

The Emperor’s further observations however drowned out by screams of “Father!” as he saw Nikos and Alexander run towards him, with John hanging a bit behind, looking ashamed. But Peter could not remain angry at his eldest anymore, and beckoned him too, being rewarded by a huge grin and an acceleration in pace.

“Boys, this is Kyrie John Lekepenos. He was my superior officer for many years, and currently works in his family business in Istanbul.”

He saw Basil wince from the corner of his eye at the name, and resolved to poke later. The boys however did not disappoint and tried to salute the Emperor, who was visibly struggling to keep a straight face as he returned the gesture.

“It is a delight to meet all of you, and I look forward to meeting the rest of the family as well.”

“John here is the one enlisting,” Peter added, dragging the eldest forward.

“Is that so? Well, I am sure you will have an interesting time in the frontier.”

Alexander, ever the youngest, piped up. “But you were my father’s superior sir, and must have seen glorious things!”

“Indeed, I had been in the army for a while. Since Baghdad as a matter of fact, and I can tell you some interesting stories over food.”

It was strange, Peter thought, that the lowly tax collectors and bureaucrats showed such arrogance, when the Emperor of Romania himself laughed and joked with three village boys, sharing tales of glory in the past, without a care about social status. But that had always been the thing that made Basil truly Great.

He will not be forgotten. Songs in his name will be sung till the end of the last Christian in Romania. The man who saved us all, Basileos Soter. And the People will save his achievements, even when the mighty cannot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“I am confused by something,” said the Emperor as Peter led him back to the inn. “Why do all of you insist on calling it Istanbul? That sounds so terrible and inelegant. Constantinople is the right name”.


Poor man. This is probably something he never learned despite all his time.“Well, the people in this part of the world have not known another City save the Queen of the Cities itself. So we tend to see it as simply The Polis, and call the road eis tin polis, which got bastardized to Istanbul.”

Basil froze. “That's what it means?”

“What did you think it meant?”


An embarrassed chuckle came from the Emperor. “An Armenian told me many years ago that it was actually Islam-bol, as it resisted the Saracens for so long.”

“Uh, the little Armenian I know would suggest it means nothing of that sort.”

“It always felt incongruous, but oh well. Now I see the problem. Seems like we need to invest more into schools these days. I am deeply unsatisfied with what your children are telling me.”

“You are being unrealistic Emperor. Peasants do not need to learn Homer, and be educated in the manner scholars are.”

“Therein lies your mistake. The dynatoi, Saracens and like can take all from you. Your land, money, family, limbs. But as long as you are alive, your education will never leave you. Without education, you will be cheated by moneylenders, merchants, nobles and anyone with it. Knowledge is the most effective form of power there is, which does not care if you are rich or poor, strong or crippled, Roman or barbarian.”

That was very eloquent.

“In another life,” continued the Emperor, “I think I would have preferred to have been like my grandfather. A scholar who lets others bear the sins of the world. Stephen taught me that much at least.”

“But,” argued Peter, “What difference will that name make? Constantinople or Istanbul, the City remains the same.”

“We should not forget our past. Children today learn the name of a filthy backwater in Italy as their identity. Yet, though we may call ourselves Romans, we are in truth the children of Byzantium and Constantinos Megas. The future of Romania will be bleak if our children do not know who we are. Thus, I hope that they will at least be able to properly name the foremost City of their Basileia. Without that, we will crumble to dust when the adversary comes.”

“Yet,”, argued Peter, “names are not everything. By simply calling it ‘The City’, we commoners show a devotion to it that Constantinople does not conjure. Names have power, but we ought not to make dynatoi of them”

And so they continued to banter, heading east towards the Inn, while the sun continued its descent behind them, bathing the City in question with its final lights. Constantinople might be stained red by the stuttering curses of Sol Invictus, but its streets will not be filled with blood and fire today, and hopefully not for the centuries to come either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basil was an Emperor and King.
Of him the harpers sadly sing;
the first whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen.
His shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

But long ago he sailed away,
and where he dwelleth none can say;
for into the sea fell his star
In the East, long afar.
 
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Really an amazing timeline!!! Kinda surprised I just found it now. One thing thats really bothering me though is that the population changes seems to be happening at a break neck speed well past the logistical capabilities present pre industrial rev. Apart from that its really an interesting tl.
 
Fantastic update! A few question, did Basil spend his last days trying to sail to China? Who did he leave in charge in Constantinople? If his heir apparent is exiled in the east wouldn't that almost certainly guarantee civil war?
 
This is exactly what I was thinking.

It seems that the strength and expansion of Romania had somehow driven Muslims west and north, from the period where Italy was apparently a Muslim-ruled zone comparable to Andalusia, before further Romanian expansion absorbed and theologically cleansed both of these in turn, and the Muslim refugees from these conquests moved north--those who did not go west across the Atlantic anyway.

I think we need some elaboration how that movement led to the semi-Islamification of northern Europe, rather than as I would suppose that region being largely denied as refuge. I can see that prior to the fall of Italy and Iberia to the Romanians, some Latin states would have had alliances or anyway trade relations with these Muslim powers and thus those specific states might have given refuge, but I'd think even the rulers of those states would have had terms and conditions for the refugees--and maybe here is where the quasi-millet system you describe as so dysfunctional arose.

But I'd also think other European states would not have had such ties, not directly anyway, and yet not such close ties to Romania as to simply fall into the Romanian system--or perhaps no ties at all. The refugees would not find any welcome there at all, not at first anyway.

Now it is correct that Europe, away from the Mediterranean shores that Romania resumes control of, was indeed a backwater throughout most of recorded history. It didn't offer many high-value resources to exchange in global trade--some metals such as tin that could be gotten elsewhere; amber, which was pretty unique but hardly a jewel of strategic importance; and otherwise mostly slaves were Europe's exports as late as the early Middle Ages. And it is peripheral, tending to get the "news" of new technologies last. Its climate was poorly adapted to the primary crops and domestic animals of the ancient agricultural heartlands; it took time to develop the techniques of agriculture to the point where large populations could be sustained. OTL of course a huge shot in the arm came from the discovery and conquest of the New World, which among other things introduced numerous new crops--this was generally true all over the Old World of course. (Which suggests that even if Latin Europe has no hegemony over the New World to speak of--the sole exception being Scandinavian polities--the crops would still filter over).

But OTL by the High Middle Ages, a new pattern of civilization had developed that greatly expanded the exploitation of European potentials. On the whole, the strength and growth of Romania would not have preempted the High Middle Ages in most of Europe. Of course it did impact Italy, critically and early, and based on OTL sequences, disrupting the role Italy played in the developing medieval Latin Christendom could indeed have dire consequences.

However, while Italy was precocious and exemplary, I don't think even steamrollering over it twice would abort the overall development, though it would change it considerably.

A major thing I think I have already talked about many months ago would be atomizing the formerly Roman Church, by first Muslims then Romanians displacing the Papacy from its purported seat of power in Rome. Presumably the Curia would run into exile, to Avignon or someplace else, while first the Muslims then perhaps the Romanians would set up their own Bishops of Rome to compete. I'd think these puppets would not even be called "Popes" by anyone since neither Muslims nor Romanians are interested in perpetuating any sweeping claims of the Roman patriarch having special authority, nor would factions among the Latins be interested, generally, in kowtowing to such a figure. (Unless perhaps diplomatic contingencies lead them to seek to flatter either the Rum Emir or the Roman Emperor--even then, the alienness of the new ecclesiastic regime in Rome would make it difficult to simply shift allegiance tither). What would be schismatic, in Latin Europe, would be the fact that with no one claimant among Latins to the title of Pope being able to reinforce it by actually occupying Rome, the thing becomes a free-for-all, with any dissident who can get the support of any significant secular power able to gin up some kind of claim to be the true successor of Peter. Thus Latin Europe would be thrown into a more or less Protestant condition, with lots of locally supported church hierarchies that don't typically reach past the secular jurisdiction of a patron monarch (or republic, whatever).

If a large number of Latin powers do decide that they need and want a centralized universal church, they could cooperate in settling their favored claimant to the Petrine succession in a chosen See in Exile, say Trier, which was a Roman Empire capital at one time, or Aachen, Charlemagne's nominal capital. (But was Charlemagne himself already butterflied in this TL?)

Aside from the role the Roman Church played in the development of medieval civilization, is Europe otherwise crippled? I'd say no, not in the medieval timeframe; sufficient energy and ingenuity would exist north of the Alps to essentially reproduce the sort of progress the continent did enjoy under OTL conditions.

But, going forward from there, the most the Middle Ages achieved in terms of Europe's standing on the global stage was to make it less backward--still, as of say 1400, an objective surveyor of Earth's peoples probably would not rank the region very highly compared to places like China or India.

What vaulted Europe from a second-rate backwater to the world-ruling titan it collectively was in the early 20th century was the co-development of global trade and with it, empires, with capitalist industrialism.

Here, it would seem that the Muslim Andalusians played the role of OTL Portugal and Spain in developing the routes around Africa and then stumbling upon the New World. Had Romania been stymied in conquering Iberia, I could still see Latin Christian Europe piggy-backing on an Andalusian expansion, for Andalusia itself would not have had the demographics to completely monopolize either direction of expansion. Presumably some Latin Christian states would have good relations with al-Andalus and been trade partners, serving at the very least as markets for goods an Andalusian monopoly brings in from both the Orient and the New World. In these circumstances, capital comparable to what the Spanish Empire of the Indies brought in might have served to assist the expansion and development of European industry, which transformed the utility of European resources, and underlaid a huge demographic boom as well.

However, in this TL, it seems that some time not too long after the Andalusians find footholds in the New World, the Romanians come in in full force and conquer all of Iberia, aborting the Andalusian trade empire and driving the survivors of this invasion either north into Europe or west to new settlements across the Atlantic.

Now I have to wonder, if the Romanians had ships good enough to match the presumable Andalusian defenders on the sea approaches, why did they not pursue their fleeing enemies across the Atlantic to deny them refuge there, and even if trying to smoke out all refugees was a fool's errand, at any rate establish bases of their own in the Caribbean or on other western shores, so as to cut in to the valuable trade in New World goods, not to mention a missionary program to pre-empt Islamization of the whole western hemisphere? Could it be that Romanian navigation was somewhat backward and they didn't attack by sea, but marched overland across the northwest Med shoreline to invade from the northeast? In that case I can see how the Andalusians would find safe respite overseas, and Romania fails to move into the New World in any force.

In this scenario (or the more likely one where Romania goes on west) Andalusian trade around Africa is broken because the Romanians can move out of the Red Sea to intercept trade to India and points east. But it seems that here the Romanians failed to pursue into the New World for whatever reason, leaving the Andalusians to recover and expand in the Western Hemisphere.

The thing about the OTL Iberian powers, and subsequent northern Europeans horning in, was that they all sought to control both the eastern and the American routes. And it was the Eastern goods that were generally more valuable in Europe, though of course American silver and gold were very important too. Here, even if the Romanians leave the Andalusian refugees in the New World alone, they control the lucrative eastern trade, via a more direct route along the Med and Red Seas or out of Mesopotamian ports on the Persian Gulf. No Europeans have a foothold in the Indian Ocean or points east of there but the Romanians. The Spanish were able to extort precious metals by controlling a sweeping Empire of the Indies that reduced all the peoples they came in contact with to subjugation (or left them outside of their interest). The exiled Andalusians cannot exercise that kind of hegemony; they might pull a Cortez and take over Mexico, but they must rule it in cooperation with local allies; they can't call on reinforcements. And even if they can concentrate on developing trade goods, they have no one to trade with but the Latin Europeans or the hated Romanians. (Or perhaps West Africa). They can't acquire the precious metals as rapidly and rapaciously as the Spanish did, and they can't offer Eastern spices, silks and so forth in the package. Because Latin Europe is not in control of New World resources and not in competition to tap into the Eastern trade directly, northern Europe is not getting rich nearly as fast as OTL, and has relatively little to offer the Andalusians, who must either secure access to basic subsistence in the western lands for themselves or perish. Aside from silver and gold, they could offer to trade in chocolate and other uniquely New World products, but they are concentrating on establishing themselves on a survival basis on new shores, and the Europeans are not rich enough to buy sugar or chocolate or other western goods in great quantity.

Thus, from the sixteenth century on, relative to OTL Europe is starved and eclipsed, even if domestic industry still has potential to develop it is starved of capital. There is still some, but much less than OTL. Even if they enjoy very cordial relations with the Andalusian colonies in the west, these are initially very small and marginal, and far away. The basis for the development of European merchant marines and navies is much stunted, and we can see how it is that even though at any rate the New World is just sitting there, the European kingdoms don't generally make a huge effort to seize them. OTL getting control of the Americas was a rather slow process after all. By 1700 it was well under way, but that was after 200 years of domination of world trade, which is not happening here.

I started this post doubting that Europe would remain a backwater, but now that I am finishing it, I wonder rather how it could ever have been as the author suggests that Europe ever did have a "moment in the sun." With the industrial revolution stunted in northern Europe and I would guess happening in Romania instead, it seems rather a wonder that the Romanians did not simply move on north from their hold along the Med and reconquer at least to the bounds that the ancient original Roman Empire held in the west, perhaps leaving Britain alone but compensating by seizing much of Germany instead, to round out subjugation of France and the Lowlands. I wouldn't see that happening in one massive sweep of fanatical conquest for its own sake, but rather as the outcome of successive border squabbles. Once Romania is well on the way to industrialization, say when it reaches the general sort of capabilities (in some heartland regions in the empire if not generally throughout it) of say OTL Britain in 1800, its forces, superior in both numbers and technique and with much deeper logistical pockets, ought to be able to crush any single European realm. So say a quarrel with France over the border somewhere in the Midi ought to lead in very short order either to the Parisian regime seeing their certain doom and coming to terms that effectively annex the realm (minus concessions) to the Romanian sphere, or stubborn resistance leads to defeat in detail and the outright annexation of the whole kingdom.

In medieval days, such an outcome would be harder for the Romanians to accomplish and it would leave them to digest a poison pill of Latin Christians. In a later context though I'd think an industrializing Empire would become more cynical and politic about religious policy, and conciliate its new provinces with concessions on religious rite--as long as the high officials of the French Rite answer to the Patriarch of Constantinople and/or the Emperor. If the Latin churches, once deprived of the seat of Rome for the Pope, had indeed fragmented into so many national churches, taking over the nation means taking over the locally established church.

An industrialized Empire that can conquer and assimilate France would then come into contact and conflict with the Lowlands, parts of Germany, and across the Channel Britain as well. If the European nations generally are either not industrializing at all or doing so only on a capital-starved shoestring, I'd think that one by one they'd fall. Perhaps Britain, being able to concentrate on naval power, in alliance with some northern power such as the strongest Scandinavian powers, might hold out, especially if the latter have cashed in on the prospects of the New World--though we are told the Scandinavians hold only marginal coastal claims; to be a strong rival of the Empire I'd think they'd have needed to penetrate up the Saint Lawrence and on to the Great Lakes. Since they didn't apparently do that, I have to doubt the ability of any European coalition to command enough industrial power to stand long against Romanian force.

So I've reversed my question now--why doesn't Romania rule all of Europe by now, from the northern cape of Norway all the way down to the Med? Or at least from the Med to the Baltic?

That's a great analysis overall and raises a lot of issues that I hope to address over time. For now, a brief answer will be:
1. Islamification of Europe: I intend to tackle this one in details a bit later. The major events driving it are post 11th Century after all. Overall though, the major influence of the Roman Empire on Nicene-Chalcedonian Christianity as well as the Greekness of the New Testament will create counter, very radical movements in Europe as the Empire becomes the enemy (especially under the rigidness of Theokratia). Many will be Christian in the sense that they accept Jesus Christ as God's son and Savior, but would have little else in common with the Christianity we know. Sort of extreme Reformation, which will draw ideas from the only force that demonstrably humbled Constantinople. The dynamics regarding the New World are also to be explored later.

2. Roman expansion, especially in the West is checked by a few things. The first is internal issues. Basil's conquests alone will take centuries to digest, Central Asian nomads are going to come, then Plague and finally Theokratia, which at times looked inwards to "purify" the state (final solution etc). The two expansionist ideologies I have planned for Rome are the competing visions of the Inner Sea (which translates into overall desire for Thessalokratia) and the example set by Argeads (where they will march East on land). Neither involves conquest of barbarian Europe beyond a point (the Euxine is another issue, but the Romans don't necessarily need to hold all the land around it to control the sea itself). The New World similarly is of lesser interest for Rome than the old one, where trade with China, and possibly gaining dominance over chunks of India are bigger issues.

3. Latin Church: There is no Patriarch of Rome within the Roman Empire. The office was fused by the Patriarch-Emperor John Callnicus with his own after the city was taken. The Imperial Patriarch is the head (not first among equals) of the Church in Romania, and is based in Constantinople. Loyalist Latins were allowed to continue with their rite for a while, but Greek education and rising secularism decimated to essentially the point of extinction in the modern era. As for remaining Europe, your observation about breaking down into a mess of national churches is totally consistent with my current plans.

I apologize for not being more detailed, health issues have recently kept my mind far away from the TL.
 
Interesting speculations, Shevek23. Could be the Romanians just got overextended for a long time in the east which discouraged adventures in the west.

Also, combining the fact that the Mediterranean is a lot poorer in industrial raw materials (coal in particular) than North Europe, which would probably slow Romanian industrialization, with the fact that scientific and industrial advances would tend to flow more easily between the Latin west and the Romanian East than between Islam and Christianity OTL, even a relatively poor and backwards Latin Europe might be able to catch up in time to become a fairly tough nut to crack.

There is some indication that the Muslim states of the new world form a fairly powerful block: the spread of Islamic religion and technology may have allowed large-scale state building and some form of modernization in the New World, as well, even if by this point the European and North African Muslims only form a small part of the local gene pool. (Indeed, given the Islam-Latin Christian reconciliation of OTL, by "now" western Europe may have been sending part of its population surplus to the Americas for a couple centuries now, giving the Islamic Americas a substantial Latin Christian minority).

And Russia is still a bit of a wild card: it has been indicated that they're more modernized than western Europe, but what their relation is to the Empire and the Latins is unclear.

Good points, and some surplus population has definitely been going there. Of course, most immigrants merge into the mainstream (highly encouraged). Russia also offers a decent deal.

Russia is kind of in a in-between place between Latins and the Empire. More pro-latin than the Romans, the Russians are the other major European power, and their relationship with the Romans is no longer friendly. They historically wanted Tsargrad too much for that to be viable, and their interests are far too orthogonal, not to mention a final theological schism. Russia is a conservative, uber-nationalistic, highly religious society, but they have exploited their natural resources properly, and industrialized well (kinda like a more conservative US, barring all the fertile land ofc). They are the third power of TTL, but unfortunately for them, the top two are close buddies and try to keep the bear caged. Direct war is unprofitable, so a proxy war in Europe and Central Asia is the way old scores are being settled.
 
Really an amazing timeline!!! Kinda surprised I just found it now. One thing thats really bothering me though is that the population changes seems to be happening at a break neck speed well past the logistical capabilities present pre industrial rev. Apart from that its really an interesting tl.

Thanks for the kind words! As for the transfer my overall rationale was to do that via famine in Egypt (plus controlled ethnic cleansing in Sicily), followed by relatively slow replacement by Greeks. Did I screw up somewhere with the overall rate? I think the highly centralized Roman Empire could do better than almost any other pre-industrial state not called China, but I might have gone too far. Lemme know where I went too far, so that I can correct it (or try to rationalize if needed) :)
 
Fantastic update! A few question, did Basil spend his last days trying to sail to China? Who did he leave in charge in Constantinople? If his heir apparent is exiled in the east wouldn't that almost certainly guarantee civil war?

Thanks. Answers:

1. Basil sailed east. What happens there is left to your imagination, as I want to leave it open ended. He literally vanishes from the pages of history afterwards, so many things like shipwrecks, piracy, being blown off to the New World etc are possible (within some definition of that word). Or he was not important enough to be a part of the Chinese record, or he fell in love with a place on the way and stayed there. Two fun options I was thinking was of him as a Buddhist monk in Tibet, seeking salvation for his many sins or him marrying a foreign princess and settling in some random place. I will note that many families in Asia will claim descent from him in the future, as Romans become more common in those places, to curry favor. Nearly all such claims can be dismissed immediately, but a few may merit exploration for Greek ancestry at least.

If you have good ideas for Basil's fate, feel free to suggest it, or even write a drabble :)

2. His brother Constantine VIII succeeded him as senior Emperor, like OTL. However, the junior Basileus really runs the show, being descended from both the brothers. Basil III is the late Kaisar John's son with Constantine's daughter Theodora, a product of "incest with Papal sanction", and accompanied his more martial grandfather to Egypt. The experience there has shaped his views a lot.

3. Michael was not heir apparent-his nephew had a light advantage from having Macedonian blood on both sides (plus Michael's own handicaps). He is not convinced he can handle Constantinople, having spent too little time there, and effective Kingship in the East is a decent deal. There will not be civil war, as Basil was open about his desire to have his grandson succeed, and that alone buys loyalty of a lot of the army not in Mesopotamia. Plus the forces in Egypt like 'little Caesar'.
 
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Good to see this (and you) back! So the Big Three are Romania, Russia, and China?

Edit: not sure why the Russians would be after Constantinople in this world. In ours it was their claim of being the third Rome, and the prospect of liberating the Second One from Islam and claiming its heritage, which made them hot for the Dardanelles. With it in demonstrably Christian hands, before the religious split the incentive will be to push the _superiority_ of the Third Rome (Moscow or elsewhere), not seizing the capital of their competitors.
 
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Edit: not sure why the Russians would be after Constantinople in this world. In ours it was their claim of being the third Rome, and the prospect of liberating the Second One from Islam and claiming its heritage, which made them hot for the Dardanelles. With it in demonstrably Christian hands, before the religious split the incentive will be to push the _superiority_ of the Third Rome (Moscow or elsewhere), not seizing the capital of their competitors.

Strategic reasons played as much a part in Russian desire for Constantinople as anything else. If it follows OTL patterns of expansion, Russia's sole permanently available sea access is in the Baltic (an area contested by multiple powers, easy to close and difficult to control) and the Black Sea (an area with a strategic bottleneck in the form of Constantinople) - with a large percentage of their trade coming through Black Sea ports (presumably, like OTL), the existence of a major power which can unilaterally sever their access to the sea would inspire significant wariness from Russian leadership. Controlling Constantinople/Thrace would be a good way to ensure that, in the event of war, Russian trade is significantly more difficult to interdict.

The breaking point could very well have been Constantinople closing the Black Sea during some crisis or period of tension between the two powers.
 
Good to see this (and you) back! So the Big Three are Romania, Russia, and China?

Edit: not sure why the Russians would be after Constantinople in this world. In ours it was their claim of being the third Rome, and the prospect of liberating the Second One from Islam and claiming its heritage, which made them hot for the Dardanelles. With it in demonstrably Christian hands, before the religious split the incentive will be to push the _superiority_ of the Third Rome (Moscow or elsewhere), not seizing the capital of their competitors.

@B_Munro : Big Four actually: Romania, China, Russia and Scandinavia, with 1,2,4 allied against 3 to contain it. Scandinavia is kind of not exactly big compared to the first three, but is treated as a part of the big boys club at the insistence of Rome (and later China).

As for Constantinople, Keb correctly notes that the strategic need for the sea is important, even more so TTL with a relatively hostile Scandinavian power pressuring Baltic access. Religion is a big part though: the Rome-Russia schism is much deeper than the OTL Orthodox-Catholic, theologically speaking. Russia remains committed to Nicene-Chalcedonian synthesis (essentially Eastern Orthodoxy), while that is no longer the state church in Romania. There is also bitterness coming from the Mongol days, when almighty Romania did nothing to help them, and at times allied with their oppressors. There was a non-trivial portion of time when Russia claimed to be Third Rome similarly, using the extreme Roman heresy as an excuse. Of course, that bitterness is behind them as war between state actors is no longer profitable, and Islamic extremism becomes an issue for both of them, leading to uneasy friendship.
 
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Strategic reasons played as much a part in Russian desire for Constantinople as anything else. If it follows OTL patterns of expansion, Russia's sole permanently available sea access is in the Baltic (an area contested by multiple powers, easy to close and difficult to control) and the Black Sea (an area with a strategic bottleneck in the form of Constantinople) - with a large percentage of their trade coming through Black Sea ports (presumably, like OTL), the existence of a major power which can unilaterally sever their access to the sea would inspire significant wariness from Russian leadership. Controlling Constantinople/Thrace would be a good way to ensure that, in the event of war, Russian trade is significantly more difficult to interdict.

The breaking point could very well have been Constantinople closing the Black Sea during some crisis or period of tension between the two powers.

@Keb : Excellent point! I might even make a dramatic short moment describing the collapse of this relationship, so thanks for the suggestion!
 
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@Everyone reading

I was thinking of starting another Romania TL, and was wondering if people had any opinions about that. This one will slow down a bit because I am not too fond of the next century or so ahead, but that needs to be done. However, I want to keep on writing and a second TL would help on that front. Half my ideas are ASB, but am still posting the blurbs (plausibility suggestions too welcome):

1. Nightfall (partly inspired by the anime Trinity Blood)
Events proceed as OTL (John I dies in 976), until Emperor Basil II encounters a certain mythical entity in the Balkans during the Bulgarian wars. He survives that encounter, but is irreversibly changed in the process.

In 2015, the will of the Roman Emperor is absolute, and he reigns supreme over the globe from the Black Palace in Constantinople. The Douxes rule in his name, and deal with mundane issues-but they know better than to presume that they can beat the central authority. There had been no wars for over five centuries, since the last failed rebellion by the brother of the Emperor.

But all is not well in the City of the Night. Humanity chaffs under the weight of their oppressive overlords, who seek not only their labor but also their lifeblood. And the nobles plot and conspire about the succession. They dare not move against the Emperor himself of course, but surely even the Thousand Year Rule must end someday.

Until an explosion in Hagia Sophia makes such discussions less hypothetical, and Megas Doukina Theodora is left with the task of having to hold a visibly crumbling Empire together, while trying to survive plots by her elder sister and old men who chaff at the idea of a woman ruling. A new Emperor must be chosen and the old one avenged, but it is too great a task for any human.

Fortunately for her, she is not one.

2. Union of Worlds: Romania from TTL in 2016 is ISOTed to OTL, with all it's Empire (i.e. non voting lands in Oceania, Asia and Africa) and military hardware.

President Obama ought to be the happiest man on the planet. ISIS is gone, along with the whole Middle Eastern mess. He does not have to worry about a dictatorial Turkish president, Israel or Middle Eastern refugees. Crimea is out of Russian hands. The Greek debt crisis is over, and in fact the Mediterranean seems to be doing pretty well economically.

Except for the fact that there is another superpower in Eastern Europe again, and one that seems to be winning a propaganda battle both internationally and in his own country. Mr Trumps in fact is quick to point to the success of Roman methods in dealing with certain problematic elements in society, and too many Christians think this is an act of God.

Plus, a lot of the world's oil is taken off from the market.

3. There will be no Fourth: Sicily and Southern Italy remain Roman (exact POD TBD). The pressure of the Turks and the avarice of the Latins however is too great, and the Second Rome kneels to Islam on 29th May 1453.

Syracuse still remains. Perhaps not for long, but the men are prepared to battle on shores and the cities. For there will be no Fourth if the Third Rome falls, and no price is too great to pay for independence, not even kneeling to the Papal Tiara (snippet here). And they dream that maybe someday, there will once again be a Roman Empire stretching from the Pillars of Hercules to the Euphrates.

4. In all but name: The Chanak crisis goes hot for certain reasons and another dystopia (although limited scale) happens.

Andrew Bonar Law might have been a colonial. But he was a father first, and he will be damned if he lets the people who killed two of his sons ride roughshod over Britannia. If the other cowards won't stand with him, then so be it.

Of course, it doesn't have to be so bad as the Bolsheviks were not doing that well in hiding their support for the Anatolian junta. Even if the damned Tories don't understand anything else, they know that the Straits can't go to Russia or her puppet. That is why after all, they let the Turks butcher the Greeks and Armenians for so long. Now the sides had changed, and even the French cowards are having second thoughts.
(That part is TTL Bonar Law's thought).
 
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@All: Sorry for the long delays, but Ive been thinking about this TL for a while and came to a conclusion that I am not satisfied with my writing. I did not put much thought about the rest of the world in, and tried really hard to stick to a really narrow trajectory. So I think I'll kill this particular thread for good.

I'll do a reboot of this in the near/very near future, with more detailed and spaced out updates. One request, do people have suggestions about the title? Romania is incredibly confusing to OTL people after all :)
 
@All: Sorry for the long delays, but Ive been thinking about this TL for a while and came to a conclusion that I am not satisfied with my writing. I did not put much thought about the rest of the world in, and tried really hard to stick to a really narrow trajectory. So I think I'll kill this particular thread for good.

I'll do a reboot of this in the near/very near future, with more detailed and spaced out updates. One request, do people have suggestions about the title? Romania is incredibly confusing to OTL people after all :)
will you post a notice of such a reboot, or other perhaps tangential developments, here? I only check the main forums sporadically and often miss new stuff.
 
Rhomania, while incorrect is quite used and easily recognisable.

Ooh good idea. However, I think I will go with something more explicit: "Out of the Ashes: The Byzantine Empire from Basil II to the Present".

will you post a notice of such a reboot, or other perhaps tangential developments, here? I only check the main forums sporadically and often miss new stuff.

Yup, will definitely do so.
 
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