Romania as a part of Germany

eh, how do Wallachia and Moldovia become part of Germany? To get that far east in the first place, Germany has to annex Hungary, and I think we have the "Dual Monarchy in Grossduetschland" thread about why, exactly, that is ASB.
 
Well having a totally different german migration during the III-VII centuries, settleing the Macedonia and Thracia, well maybe it's possible to the "germans to create an empire at Constantinople instead of a surviving byzantine one, and then, making Romania part of this empire?

If you want to hit me, i'm already out of here.
 
eh, how do Wallachia and Moldovia become part of Germany? To get that far east in the first place, Germany has to annex Hungary, and I think we have the "Dual Monarchy in Grossduetschland" thread about why, exactly, that is ASB.

I want all of the Eastern bloc annexed by germany for a time..
 
The Holy Roman Empire sprawling over Hungary and then Romania would be easier, but that's not Germany.
 
Well my grandmother was German and she was from Transylvania (her Family had been there over 200 years) which is just over the mountains from Romania. Its in modern Romania and now inhabited by Romanians but 100 years ago they were only a small minority there and the population was mostly Hungarian with a German minority that probably outnumbered the Romanians. Im sure there were German settlers in Romania just not in great numbers, but if more were to move here less would settle some where else. If there was no US and British North America looked down on German settlers then there would be plenty of Germans to move where ever you want.
 
Well my grandmother was German and she was from Transylvania (her Family had been there over 200 years) which is just over the mountains from Romania. Its in modern Romania and now inhabited by Romanians but 100 years ago they were only a small minority there and the population was mostly Hungarian with a German minority that probably outnumbered the Romanians. Im sure there were German settlers in Romania just not in great numbers, but if more were to move here less would settle some where else. If there was no US and British North America looked down on German settlers then there would be plenty of Germans to move where ever you want.

I don't have any sources immediately avaliable, but I'm pretty sure Romanians have been a majority in Transylvania for quite a long time. The area was part of the medieval/early modern Hungarian kingdom, and Hungarians were politically dominant until after WWI, but to my knowledge, Transylvania has not had any ethnic cleansings/mass migrations/population transfers worth mentioning.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I don't have any sources immediately avaliable, but I'm pretty sure Romanians have been a majority in Transylvania for quite a long time. The area was part of the medieval/early modern Hungarian kingdom, and Hungarians were politically dominant until after WWI, but to my knowledge, Transylvania has not had any ethnic cleansings/mass migrations/population transfers worth mentioning.

IIRC there were transfers of germans, but they were never more than 10% of the Transylvanian population anyway. The magyar were similarly a small island in a romanian sea. The only part where there might have been a demographic switch is probably the Maramures and Banat.
 
Well my grandmother was German and she was from Transylvania (her Family had been there over 200 years) which is just over the mountains from Romania. Its in modern Romania and now inhabited by Romanians but 100 years ago they were only a small minority there and the population was mostly Hungarian with a German minority that probably outnumbered the Romanians. Im sure there were German settlers in Romania just not in great numbers, but if more were to move here less would settle some where else. If there was no US and British North America looked down on German settlers then there would be plenty of Germans to move where ever you want.

I don't have any sources immediately avaliable, but I'm pretty sure Romanians have been a majority in Transylvania for quite a long time. The area was part of the medieval/early modern Hungarian kingdom, and Hungarians were politically dominant until after WWI, but to my knowledge, Transylvania has not had any ethnic cleansings/mass migrations/population transfers worth mentioning.

Indeed, there were Germans, known as Saxons, in the eastern portions of Transylvania... but they were limited to that very small slice of territory, and even then they didn't constitute a majority of the population. Its a seed to play with, but the Saxons only migrated to the area in the 12th and 13th centuries, so you'd have to go back so far to create a situation in which what we IOTL know as Romania is part of 'Germany' to change the world so much it'd be unrecognizable. Not ASB per say, but undoubtedly highly unlikely.
 
Well my grandmother was German and she was from Transylvania (her Family had been there over 200 years) which is just over the mountains from Romania. Its in modern Romania and now inhabited by Romanians but 100 years ago they were only a small minority there and the population was mostly Hungarian with a German minority that probably outnumbered the Romanians. Im sure there were German settlers in Romania just not in great numbers, but if more were to move here less would settle some where else. If there was no US and British North America looked down on German settlers then there would be plenty of Germans to move where ever you want.

Wow, wow, wow, slow down a bit there ... My grandmother was only half German, her mother was German, and her family settled in Dobrudja around 1840 or so. Most of the Dobrudjan Germans were either relocated back in Germany by Hitler, or deported to Siberia by the communists. About Transylvania you're completely wrong there. Romanians always were the majority, although they had limited rights granted by the Hungarian or Austrian authorities. Even a Habsurg Emperor (can't remember which one) said that the Romanians are the oldest and largest population in Transylvania.

Edit : I can't find the Habsburg Emperor's quote I've mentioned, but I think it had something to do with the official census of Joseph II.
 
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Would the Austrian empire count? They came pretty close, taking most of Vlachia once. (However, Russia'll want to have a word about that.)
 
Wow, wow, wow, slow down a bit there ... My grandmother was only half German, her mother was German, and her family settled in Dobrudja around 1840 or so. Most of the Dobrudjan Germans were either relocated back in Germany by Hitler, or deported to Siberia by the communists. About Transylvania you're completely wrong there. Romanians always were the majority, although they had limited rights granted by the Hungarian or Austrian authorities. Even a Habsurg Emperor (can't remember which one) said that the Romanians are the oldest and largest population in Transylvania.

Edit : I can't find the Habsburg Emperor's quote I've mentioned, but I think it had something to do with the official census of Joseph II.

You would need to invent whole cloth of characters, as even Kaiser Bill and Dolphy Hitler did not care for the region, the later wanting to 'bring these people home' and focus more on the 'terrible slavs', especially Hitler.
I personally do not like dealing with WWII/WWI alternate histories which
leave the militarists in greater control, but it was possible with the
main OTL protaganists out of the way, liquidated or a vegetable, that
a successor had a relative in the area/etc and made a deal for sort of
a city state for a few chips (Hitler had a high school history teacher
from Marburg/Marbor on the Slovenia border, for example). All of the
area was a bargaining chip with Hungary, and the main trend was
towards no enclave amalgamization.

Besides, Transylvania was a passe and bygone place, surrounded by Hungarians and Romanians, both wanting the region. Economically, it was very much out of the picture as it is mountainous and had no huge deposits of minerals (the oilfields are just to the south of the border) able to support a country. There was no port link to the outside world via water except the iron gate Danube, which is not a great industrial site.

There were wholescale slaughters with the incoming Turkish Ottomans circa 1500, which depopulated the region. Not sure of it, but the Germans seemed to do better, having very strong mountain castles that could negotiate better terms with military forces. Afterwards, with the wayward brother of Vlad Dracula (Radu, I think) in Wallachia doing the Turkish bidding and IMNSHO bringing about the Romania which has persisted til today (Greece was forged similarly, and I've read the Turks focused upon the Eastern Orthodox Church through out the region to act as agents for control, and of course taking the first born male child to be a slave warrior Janissary in Africa).

The Germans emmigrated because of population pressures and skills (we do not know how fortunate matters are closer to west europe, as bloody as the middle ages/renasaince was, compared to farther east, especially in central asia of Timurlane/Tamerthelame). In Russia they were invited , mostly by Catherine the Great (a ethnic German bride) and Peter the Great (ethnic Russian), aided later by the fact that Germany became the marriage mart of Europe, with some 200 Dutchies and hundreds of potential brides to look over like so many prime choice cuts.

A few royalty but mostly dirt poor, they usually expected to completely give up their nationality, and were economic immigrants to dozens of countries. However, since their practices were to some degree more advanced, they stuck together, forming a subculture as a mix of the local and that province most of the people where from in Germany. Some, like the Volga and Ukrainian groups transformed local farming, which reverted back to poor yields when they left (yields are going through the roof in the last ten years, still). No, when they returned to Germany, they did not fit in.

In post 1900 POD discussion there has been a recent free for all argument on these issues, which you might wish to read over:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=191526

As far as Dobrudja went, it was at the south eastern border of German
settlement and comparably tiny. Even in strongholds more plausible to some kind of enclave like Transylvanian Hermanstadt
Sibiu or Brasov, the ethnic Germans have almost all gone, though like Zimbabwe's
white farmer/other, the local people mostly think they offer a much
needed service to the scene and have occasionally elected a member of the tiny remnant mayor, for example (the mafia leader had the real power, 10 years ago). From what I saw ten years ago, Hungarians
are considered the threat. There may not be a single ethnic German
left in Dobrudja region, especially in the Bulgarian side, unless they
intermarried.
 
You would need to invent whole cloth of characters, as even Kaiser Bill and Dolphy Hitler did not care for the region, the later wanting to 'bring these people home' and focus more on the 'terrible slavs', especially Hitler.
I personally do not like dealing with WWII/WWI alternate histories which
leave the militarists in greater control, but it was possible with the
main OTL protaganists out of the way, liquidated or a vegetable, that
a successor had a relative in the area/etc and made a deal for sort of
a city state for a few chips (Hitler had a high school history teacher
from Marburg/Marbor on the Slovenia border, for example). All of the
area was a bargaining chip with Hungary, and the main trend was
towards no enclave amalgamization.

Besides, Transylvania was a passe and bygone place, surrounded by Hungarians and Romanians, both wanting the region. Economically, it was very much out of the picture as it is mountainous and had no huge deposits of minerals (the oilfields are just to the south of the border) able to support a country. There was no port link to the outside world via water except the iron gate Danube, which is not a great industrial site.

There were wholescale slaughters with the incoming Turkish Ottomans circa 1500, which depopulated the region. Not sure of it, but the Germans seemed to do better, having very strong mountain castles that could negotiate better terms with military forces. Afterwards, with the wayward brother of Vlad Dracula (Radu, I think) in Wallachia doing the Turkish bidding and IMNSHO bringing about the Romania which has persisted til today (Greece was forged similarly, and I've read the Turks focused upon the Eastern Orthodox Church through out the region to act as agents for control, and of course taking the first born male child to be a slave warrior Janissary in Africa).

The Germans emmigrated because of population pressures and skills (we do not know how fortunate matters are closer to west europe, as bloody as the middle ages/renasaince was, compared to farther east, especially in central asia of Timurlane/Tamerthelame). In Russia they were invited , mostly by Catherine the Great (a ethnic German bride) and Peter the Great (ethnic Russian), aided later by the fact that Germany became the marriage mart of Europe, with some 200 Dutchies and hundreds of potential brides to look over like so many prime choice cuts.

A few royalty but mostly dirt poor, they usually expected to completely give up their nationality, and were economic immigrants to dozens of countries. However, since their practices were to some degree more advanced, they stuck together, forming a subculture as a mix of the local and that province most of the people where from in Germany. Some, like the Volga and Ukrainian groups transformed local farming, which reverted back to poor yields when they left (yields are going through the roof in the last ten years, still). No, when they returned to Germany, they did not fit in.

In post 1900 POD discussion there has been a recent free for all argument on these issues, which you might wish to read over:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=191526

As far as Dobrudja went, it was at the south eastern border of German
settlement and comparably tiny. Even in strongholds more plausible to some kind of enclave like Transylvanian Hermanstadt
Sibiu or Brasov, the ethnic Germans have almost all gone, though like Zimbabwe's
white farmer/other, the local people mostly think they offer a much
needed service to the scene and have occasionally elected a member of the tiny remnant mayor, for example (the mafia leader had the real power, 10 years ago). From what I saw ten years ago, Hungarians
are considered the threat. There may not be a single ethnic German
left in Dobrudja region, especially in the Bulgarian side, unless they
intermarried.

Well that's a complete reply :p Mostly you're right, but I think you didn't quite understood what I was saying in the first place. I was talking about OTL not ATL. Yeah I was kind of off topic in my first post in this thread and maybe this is why you got me wrong. Also, thanks for the suggestion about that thread. I don't usualy wander to far from the "Before 1900" forum, but the "Republic of Transylvania" thread deserves some attention.

To throw in a totaly crazy idea to the OP, I'll say this : What if the Union of Michael the Brave survives longer. As we know, he was for some time the vassal of Rudolph II (at least formally). What if at some point in time Rudolph grants Michael the Brave the title of "Prince of the Empire" (I don't know how this works, it may not be plausible for a guy so far from Germany to be invited in the Empire), bringing Wallachia, Transylvania and Moldavia in the HRE. From there anything could happen, including a rebellion of Michael against the Habsburgs, suppressed by the Austrians, ending with the Emperor taking Michael's titles.
 
If I'm not mistaken, then the Székelys, a subgroup of HUngarians, are (or were) at least a majority in a part of Eastern Transylvania (or Siebenbürgen (from the 'seven' towns founded by German settlers), if it would be a part of Germany).

Regarding the original question, maybe the Habsburg emperors manage to unite Germany and are able to attach their kingdoms (Hungary, Croatia, Bohemia) to it and expand further in the Balkans. Although it could require a relatively early unification of Germany.
 
Yes, the Hungarian dialect speaking Székelys and Hungarians made up a sizable majority for about 40 miles all along the Romanian/Hungary border. Unfortunately, as the link given told, Bella Kun in Budapest caused such a communist mess that there was absolutely no contest as the Romanian army marched to that capital in 1919. They got the whole Transylvanian borders. Also, some large chunks in Transylvania, too, but the side areas almost guarenteed a big Hungarian interest in anyone who might offer those territories returned, realized in the form of Hitler 1941.

Hungarian speaking peoples are offered right to reside in Hungary, and slowly are filtering towards that direction, not totally unlike the majority of Moldavia (ethnic Romania) towards Romania for economic reasons.
 
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