Roman rump states?

What is the possibility of Roman rump states, former Roman provinces, or nation's based partially on Roman culture being created or surviving in Western Europe during the decline of the Western Roman Empire? I know that their was the Kingdom of Soissons, a rump state in northern Gaul ruled by Aegidius, although I am not sure if it was fully de-facto independent.


I have a severe lack of knowledge about the very early Middle Age's in Western Europe but I am very curious in knowing how an independent Roman state would be ruled and if Christianity and the Pope would have any influence over regional politics.
 
What counts as being "Roman" for you? The Kingdom of the Franks, and its successors France (and Aquitaine and...) and the Holy Roman Empire both claim descent from the Roman Empire, and that's most of Western Europe right there.
 
I think it's pretty clear the OP meant a continuity of the Roman culture untainted by Germanic or Islamic incursions.
 
What is the possibility of Roman rump states, former Roman provinces, or nation's based partially on Roman culture being created or surviving in Western Europe during the decline of the Western Roman Empire? I know that their was the Kingdom of Soissons, a rump state in northern Gaul ruled by Aegidius, although I am not sure if it was fully de-facto independent.


I have a severe lack of knowledge about the very early Middle Age's in Western Europe but I am very curious in knowing how an independent Roman state would be ruled and if Christianity and the Pope would have any influence over regional politics.
A North African rump state with Cartharge as capital would be cool. Maybe with local Berbers support.
 
What is the possibility of Roman rump states, former Roman provinces, or nation's based partially on Roman culture being created or surviving in Western Europe during the decline of the Western Roman Empire?
Well, then Barbarian Kingdoms really fit what you describe.

See, Barbarians didn't so much invaded Romania, than progressivly replaced the roman imperium with their own : Barbarian institutions in the Vth century were largely a continuation of late Roman institutions on virtually all matters. It was helped by the fact various Barbarians, as peoples, didn't appeared before the IIIrd century, and did so trough Roman policies and influence.

Goths, for exemple, were a mix of Dacians, Sarmatians, Germans and Romans structurating as chiefdoms in the IIIrd century, trough interaction with Romania : trade, military recruitment, raids, etc. All of this that made Goths a romanized people right from the beggining. As Barbarian peoples entered in the Empire, they were even more integrated within late imperial structures, going trough an even greater demographical mix-up and romanization.
By the Vth century, making the difference between a Barbarian and a provincial Roman isn't easy, as the Barbarian identity was essentially political. : you were Barbarian because you followed your Barbarian king, you were Roman because you served the Roman state (as a German-issued Stilicho did). Of course, this model is mostly theoritical, and you had more than just than playing (Stilicho was seen at best as a semi-Barbarian, after all), but it ratger fit.

It changed with the Vth and the disappearence of the Roman state in the West : it lead Romans to directly serve who had the imperium beggining a quick political mix (being understood that Barbarian peoples were importantly romanized and gathering Roman-issued people in first place).

Simply said, Barbarian kingdoms were in virtually all matter a continuation of late imperial institutions (political or administrative) and culture (most, if not all, Germanic specches used by Barbarians settled in Late Romania disappeared in the VIth).
We can still distinguish in the Vth, regions with
- A clear continuation of late imperial romanity in ERE, Africa and Italy and parts of eastern Spain and southern Gaul which maintained for a while the municipal institutions in cities and the late classical spectables and schools on a large scale (it did existed elsewhere, more not distintively)
- A post-imperial culture, marked by episcopalian institution in cities, a clerical scholarly culture, etc. It mostly concerned Gaul, Spain, Mauretania, etc., even if post-Ostrogothic Italy looked like this more and more.

Regardless of this relatively blurry distinction, you didn't have that much changes in law and customs, political frames, institutions, military organisation, etc. from late Roman culture. It did evolved from there, of course, but the key words are "evolved from there", not disappearing.

Now, there's the case of peripherical regions such as Illyricum, Moesia and critically Britain, on which late imperial institutions and features were significantly less present. It's less due to the political takeover of Barbarians, tough, than these regions being undepopulated and underdevelloped structurally compared to the majority of Roman provinces : while peoples as Franks evolved within the frame of old provinces and diocese, Anglo-Saxons exploded into tribal kingdoms because you didn't have this much presence of Roman structures and influence to begin with before the Vth.

Except the British situation, while you had a Germanic influence in post-imperial Romania, not only it tended to be really superficial (contrary to what @Sceonn argues), but it could be even posterior to the creation of Barbarian kingdoms : most of Barbarian laws (which are essentially inspired by Roman law) were written in the Vth/VIth centuries, "identitarian" objects as fransiscae, clothes or eagle fibulae simply don't exist before the Vth and VIth, etc.

I know that their was the Kingdom of Soissons, a rump state in northern Gaul ruled by Aegidius, although I am not sure if it was fully de-facto independent.
The problem isn't much to know if it was independent or not, but rather to know if it was real or not in first place.

See, the whole idea of a Gallo-Roman entity stretching from Brittany to Rhine in opposition to Franks comes from the XIXth century, when historical carthography apparead, and when there was a "gap" of knowledge of Northern Gaul.
What do we have, in ancient sources, about Syagrius? Grégoire of Tours, which mentions him twice.

Ægidius died, letting a son named Syagrius
And, much later.
In the fifth year of his reign, Syagrius, king of Romans and son of Aegidius, was in the city of Soissons, whom Aegidius took once

Syragrius (from the famous Late Antiquity and Early Medieval Gallo-Roman family of Syagrii) as some local Gallo/Hispano-Roman rulers was probably more or less independent, but essentially locally so : in clear, Syagrius may have ruled only around Soissons, or at best up to Seine, with blurry borders with Franks (it's even possible that Soissons was held at some point by Chilperic), but nothing like an unified demesne betwen Somme and Loire. We know of at least one other comes in the region, the Franko-Roman Arbogast, and you probably had more that weren't named by Grégoire.

It's interesting, then, to see that Clovis didn't took control of Orléans in the wake of Syagrius' defeat, but a decade later : Syagrius' power might simply have been reduced to a region including, roughly, Soissons, Noyon and Senlis; the rest of northern Gaul being a shifty ensemble of Saxons, Alans, Franks (Bray and Caux regions), and other more or less romanized Barbarians together with Gallo-Romans (and possibly with Ambrosius Aurelianus/Riothamus as well)

It's likely that it was essentially the emanation of the Gallo-Roman land owners, supported by private armies (bucellarii) probably as much Barbarised than the Frankish forces (which were, for all intent and purposes, the Roman army for Lower Rhine, and acknowledged as such), without a clear leadership.
The institutional and cultural difference between Syagrius (whom a kindred wrote the Burgundian Law) and Clovis were probably minimal, the latter having probably more legitimacy and more cohesive power than the former.

As said, Syagrius wasn't really unique, as a local remnant of provincial power : there's Vicentius in Taracconensis, Apollinaris Sidonius and Ecdicius in Auvergne, Victorius, Desiderius and Namatius* in Aquitaine, Syagrius and Avitus in Provence, Arbogast in Germania, etc.
These men were invested (or, more often than not, invested themselves) in the late Empire with administrative (militia) roles would it be military (Vicentius was probably trusted the military charge of Taraconnensis by Majorian) or civil (which was generally translated by an episcopalian position, but not always).

These men and their lineages eventually joined up Barbarians, as part of their kingoms' militiae, because the fall of the Roman state in West only let Barbarian imperium as a legitim authority coming from imperial institutions. Similarily, Barbarians rulers readily accepted them as part of their military and administrations, because not only it strengthened their own power (the death of Vicentius was a blunder for Euric's power in Spain, for exemple), but it strenghtened their role as successors of the empire.

*Namatius was possibly related to two others Namatiu one bing bishop of Orléans, and the other bishop of Vienna, both in the VIth century.
 
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A North African rump state with Cartharge as capital would be cool. Maybe with local Berbers support.
Africano-Romans and Berbers relations were extremly tense. The threat of a Maur takeover of Africa on Vandals is basically what made Africano-Roman calling Constantinople for help.
Assuming a more troubled situation in ERE, that prevents intervening in VIth western Mediterranean basin, it would be likely to have a Berber takeover, not exactly unified but coming out of the Berber Kingdoms appearing by the Vth century at the border of the Vandalic Kingdom.

There was an interesting, recent study about Maurs whom I translated crudely the conclusion, if you're interested, especially the latter part.
They lead us to close this book on what should be more than a paradox. C.Courtois, achieving his thesis, tought that the real drama of roman Africa wasn't the Vandal invasion, but the riebirth of a Berber world remained itself, meaning rejecting necessary the romanity.

At the end of this long study, we wonder if the real rupture in this history wasn't the byzantine reconquest. Without this, in an easter Maghreb where the roman influence was really strong, the Maur expansion could have lead, not without violence, to a berbero-roman civilisation, original and dirable, as was merovingian civilisation in Gaul.

The "divine surprise" that was Belisarius' sucessful expedition, aprooved by a roman society proclaiming its fear of the Maur, broke this possibility. Maybe did it as well condamned the future of the romanity it claimed to save.

Basically, already romanised (creolized-romanized) Berbers (trough centuries of contact and relationship with Rome, but as well with the presence of "Inner Mauri" entities within Roman and post-Roman Africa) had not only the possibility to takeover most if not all of late Ancient Africa, but form their own post-imperial kingdoms out of this conquest and allow Africano-Roman civilization to blossom.
 
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Not a satisfying answer, I'm sure, but that is exactly what Venice was, right up to the Napoleonic era: Unbroken political and social continuity from before the fall of the Western Empire.
 
There is also San Marino.
Only by self-indulging with much, much posterior tales. I mean, we could as well argue that Franks are really descendents from Trojans, because it's the same kind of suspension of disbelief at work there.
San Marino as a distinct entity from the Papal States doesn't appears before the XVIIIth century, and if we search for self-ruling evidences, it's clearly part of the lot of Italian municipal autonomies that blossomed in the XIIth century.

The same goes for Venice : no matter how hard early modern tradition attempts to points, the institutional and cultural continuation of the future republic isn't wholly different from the whole of western Romania in a similar context, safe for political happenances.

Truth to be told, I'm not holding my breath for decisive evidences about how the social or institutional frames of western Romania are supposed to have been "broken" in the Vth more than in the, say, IIIrd or VIIth centuries : there's none, but it's no big deal, eventually, because it's considered being self-evident.
 
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Only by self-indulging with much, much posterior tales. I mean, we could as well argue that Franks are really descendents from Trojans, because it's the same kind of suspension of disbelief at work there.
San Marino as a distinct entity from the Papal States doesn't appears before the XVIIIth century, and if we search for self-ruling evidences, it's clearly part of the lot of Italian municipal autonomies that blossomed in the XIIth century.

The same goes for Venice : no matter how hard early modern tradition attempts to points, the institutional and cultural continuation of the future republic isn't wholly different from the whole of western Romania in a similar context, safe for political happenances.

Truth to be told, I'm not holding my breath for decisive evidences about how the social or institutional frames of western Romania are supposed to have been "broken" in the Vth more than in the, say, IIIrd or VIIth centuries : there's none, but it's no big deal, eventually, because it's considered being self-evident.

All right, I see.
 
Only by self-indulging with much, much posterior tales. I mean, we could as well argue that Franks are really descendents from Trojans, because it's the same kind of suspension of disbelief at work there.
San Marino as a distinct entity from the Papal States doesn't appears before the XVIIIth century, and if we search for self-ruling evidences, it's clearly part of the lot of Italian municipal autonomies that blossomed in the XIIth century.

The same goes for Venice : no matter how hard early modern tradition attempts to points, the institutional and cultural continuation of the future republic isn't wholly different from the whole of western Romania in a similar context, safe for political happenances.

Truth to be told, I'm not holding my breath for decisive evidences about how the social or institutional frames of western Romania are supposed to have been "broken" in the Vth more than in the, say, IIIrd or VIIth centuries : there's none, but it's no big deal, eventually, because it's considered being self-evident.

Regardless of the vagaries of the beginnings of Venice, the fact remains that, political speaking, you have an unbroken line right back to the Empire.
 
Regardless of the vagaries of the beginnings of Venice, the fact remains that, political speaking, you have an unbroken line right back to the Empire.
As it can be told of France and Germany, with Frankish kings having recieved the roman imperium for Belgica since the IVth century, and going there from a fair continuation between Frankish institutions to modern states. What we have is a subordinated line of leaders formed out of the Roman state, that eventually outlived its local disappearance.
That's just an exemple, which I don't claim to be relevant with the idea of "unbroken line" since Late Antiquity being mostly fantasmagorical (by ignoring just enough events, we can ignore the changes; by being ultra-pedentic, we can claim nothing is a continuation), as Patrick J. Geary remarkably said in his Myth of Nations, if someone is interested reading it.

Again, we can indulge ourselves into the myth of origins, in order to favour our pet countries and to argue about why it's really different from its neighbours (when the differences are mostly self-evident fallacies and/or pedantries to say it bluntly), but it have little to none historical interest or relevance outside the study of why Venice fancied itself a continuation, less of the Eastern Roman State, but of the municipal freedoms of Rome, with its tales of early independently elected rulers.
 
Venice, whatever the specifics of its founding were, was founded by Roman citizens. It was governed, ultimately, by the Roman Emperors. As Imperial authority waned, no foreign rulers, regardless of any titles bestowed by the Romans, ever ruled the city until the Napoleonic Era.

I say that counts.
 
Venice, whatever the specifics of its founding were, was founded by Roman citizens. It was governed, ultimately, by the Roman Emperors. As Imperial authority waned, no foreign rulers, regardless of any titles bestowed by the Romans, ever ruled the city until the Napoleonic Era.

I say that counts.
San Marino, too ( according to legend).
 
San Marino, too ( according to legend).

Yes, but, as you say, its according to legend. Venice's founding is legendary, but we have enough history regarding its position as a territory of the Buzantine Empire and its gradual shift away from being such, that we can be much more confident about Venice's pedigree.
 
Doesn't the Eastern Empire itself a rump state given that they not only lost land but they lost Latin, the original language of Rome. If the only thing left of USA in 3000 occupies 30% of the Continental 2000 USA, doesn't have Washington DC, and doesn't speak English anymore, (I mean a total switch like Modern English to Spanish/Danish/ Chinese, an evolution like Middle English to Modern English is in some sense still English and compatible with whatever the British would be speaking in the future) they don't deserve to call themselves American at all.
 
Doesn't the Eastern Empire itself a rump state given that they not only lost land but they lost Latin, the original language of Rome. If the only thing left of USA in 3000 occupies 30% of the Continental 2000 USA, doesn't have Washington DC, and doesn't speak English anymore, (I mean a total switch like Modern English to Spanish/Danish/ Chinese, an evolution like Middle English to Modern English is in some sense still English and compatible with whatever the British would be speaking in the future) they don't deserve to call themselves American at all.
Um, yes they do. As long as they have a direct link of political continuity to the old United States, then they are the United States. If some warlord created a Chinese-speaking state in the territory of the former United States, they wouldn't be the United States. If, however, the United States is reduced to 30% of their original territory, and a Chinese-speaking state is left with a direct line to the US, it would still be the US. Same with Byzantium/Rome/Eastern Roman Empire.
 
I just came back to this and saw an article on a roman rump state of Altava which was ruled by people styled ruler(emperor) of the Romans and Moors.
 
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