Now, I may be an idiot for asking this, but in order for steam power to be useful on a large scale, aren't you going to need experience with casting very large metal objects as well, for boilers, furnaces, and so such, in order to get it working? Would you need the sort of knowledge you could probably only get after you start messing with cannon (experience with casting)? Or is this not a problem? Am I making any sense here?
Roman-era Steam Tech Question
- Thread starter Adam Parsons
- Start date
If you want to make steam engines you need either the ability to cast very precise and large objects or to forge the same (both will work). Both the Greeks and Romans could do that - after all, look at the work they did on bronze statues (yep, those things are cast. Including the one at Rhodes.). Neither would their metals have been found wanting in terms of quality (Late Roman swords were recently pronounced 'very good' by a Japanese swordsmith, and their bronze armour is better by several Vickers degrees than most of the bronze used today), but in quantity - that would have been the rub. Without the need for large-scale metalworking there were none too many workshops in the Empire that could handle the job, and even if the skills were transmitted more widely (as they were in the European MA, interestingly not so much because of cannon as because of bells), there would not be enough bronze to go around. Let alone iron. You're going to need blast furnaces and cast iron, hammerworks and mill forges before you can have large-scale steam power. None of this was actually beyond the Romans, it just didn't happen.
The basics were there. Heron himself could've developed a more practical design for the steam engine. Granted, more advanced metallurgy would've helped, but it was doable.
MattRice said:
I'd say that's literally imposssible to say, given that we are talking over 1,000 years of industrial development (we're barely into 250, and see where it got us). However, if Rome gets its industrial revolution (and I dare say it would be a slower and more fitful one than OTL, with lots of plateau phases and a slower technology cycle) that would perpetuate slavery for quite a while. Imperial Rome had an almost unique take on slavery. THey had chattel slaves for hard, dirty work, but they generally were happy to have such work - especially if it was seasonal - by paid freemen. Highly skilled jobs, on the other hand - craftsmen, doctors, teachers, pharmacists, actuaries and such - were often slaves as the household of the owner could be sure not to lose the investment made into their training that way. As more labour saving devices are created, manual labour becomes dirt cheap and chattel slaves less and less attractive (though I expect there will be niches for plantation slavery and some punitive jobs like quarries). Employers will, on the other hand, see the value of machine operators, engineers, and architects rise drastically and thus may consider investing into training one of their own. I imagine engineers being sold with the locomotive...
Well, one thing's for sure. Rome will be almost impervious to barbarian incursions. They'll lack the infrastructure and resources to build steam engines. Lets assume that the Romans go for applying this steam technology to transportation, with steamships and eventually locomotives.
With steamships patrolling the rivers of the Empire, the Romans would be able to move the Legions much quicker than by foot. With locomotives, they'll be even faster. The key factor is speed. Increases speed allows for increased mobility. You can outmanuver your opponents. Then, you've got the added advantages of better logistics.
There are steam weapons that could have been developed, weren't there? So, now we've got increased firepower and increased mobility.
Now, with all these transportation advances, commerce will get a boost. Foodstuffs can be shipped faster, more reliably. Plus, this will see an increase in the demand for fuel. Wood, possibly coal. Either will expand their respective industries.
Then, if coal becomes the dominant fuel (as it likely would), there will be an increase in mining activity. One of the first uses of steam engines was in mines, as pumps. They'll likely be applied eventually there.
From this point, one would assume that people would realize all the other uses to which steam power could be applied, though perhaps not.
With steamships patrolling the rivers of the Empire, the Romans would be able to move the Legions much quicker than by foot. With locomotives, they'll be even faster. The key factor is speed. Increases speed allows for increased mobility. You can outmanuver your opponents. Then, you've got the added advantages of better logistics.
There are steam weapons that could have been developed, weren't there? So, now we've got increased firepower and increased mobility.
Now, with all these transportation advances, commerce will get a boost. Foodstuffs can be shipped faster, more reliably. Plus, this will see an increase in the demand for fuel. Wood, possibly coal. Either will expand their respective industries.
Then, if coal becomes the dominant fuel (as it likely would), there will be an increase in mining activity. One of the first uses of steam engines was in mines, as pumps. They'll likely be applied eventually there.
From this point, one would assume that people would realize all the other uses to which steam power could be applied, though perhaps not.
Quick question for you guys. How long could the Romans kept this technology a secret, if they had the mind to do so? Obviously, the fewer they build, the easier it would be to keep the secret, as they could leave the task in the hands of fewer people.
Foreign states would likely be able to get copies of Heron's works, but would this be enough to ruin the Roman monopoly? After all, those same texts were lying around for almost two millenium before the steam era.
Foreign states would likely be able to get copies of Heron's works, but would this be enough to ruin the Roman monopoly? After all, those same texts were lying around for almost two millenium before the steam era.
DominusNovus said:
I don't think they'd have tried. It's a pretty non-Roman mindset. Commercially, the technology would very likely have been a trade secret for a while, but those things don't last. In the Roman Empire, the climate for individual cities or regions keeping any production method from the others is pretty bad - many techniques that were long limited to certain areas quickly spread throughout the Empire, with, frex, garum being made in Spain and North Africa and Rhenish glassware competing successfully with Syrian on quality. Arretine Ware, a typically north Italian luxury ceramic, was copied in Gaul and Germany within a few decades. I don't think this can be kept secret, especially since there is no mechanism to stop the trade of the carriers of this knowledge - slave mechanics.
The bigger issue will be which enemies of Rome will be in a position to use the technology. I doubt the Nabataeans or Sudanese would have been in a position to build steam engines, though they might well buy Roman ones. The Parthians are likely first-generation copycat users, which would actually be good for Rome (the Parthian kings were hellenophile and pretty easy-going as enemies go. The later Sassanids were aggressive, expansionist, and confessed anti-Hellenes). From there, I expect spread into India and China (where they would immediately design a better version, then forget all about it
) Rome's client kingdoms on the arabian peninslula and around the Black Sea would very likely be allowed the technology simply because they're friends, especially if steam ships are developed (actually rather likely once the technology is in place, given the way ancient civilisation is used to oared ships). The Germans, Picts, and Scots shouldn't be a worry. After all, how much did the British worry that the Zulu might capture a railway line and copy it? I could even see them asking for Roman railways to be laid into their territory to partake of the economic boom. Roman superiority is probably assured on the Western frontiers, but in the East the boost will be at best temporary.