Roman Empire stable and united instead of collapsing

Gaul it seems was the lynchpin for the Empire. It was primarily where the "Roman" element of the West Roman Army recruited from and was a major tax base for the Empire itself. With shenanigans ongoing in Italy and threats by the Alan's, Subei and such the locals pushed Constantine (Usurper) to revolt in their interests and when his forces took over Spain and failed to prevent the Barbarian Invasion his commander in Spain put forward his own candidate on behalf of the area.
 
Gaul it seems was the lynchpin for the Empire. It was primarily where the "Roman" element of the West Roman Army recruited from and was a major tax base for the Empire itself. With shenanigans ongoing in Italy and threats by the Alan's, Subei and such the locals pushed Constantine (Usurper) to revolt in their interests and when his forces took over Spain and failed to prevent the Barbarian Invasion his commander in Spain put forward his own candidate on behalf of the area.
Which only made the mistake of Gratian handing over Illyricum to the east-a wealthy province with a large manpower base-much more crippling when added with the loss of Gaul-that's the two biggest recruiting grounds the W. empire had.
 
Which only made the mistake of Gratian handing over Illyricum to the east-a wealthy province with a large manpower base-much more crippling when added with the loss of Gaul-that's the two biggest recruiting grounds the W. empire had.

Hmmm, if Magnus Maximus had managed to win in the West, he beig very Britain and Gaul oriented, could the mishaps of the next thirty years possibly be avoided if Honorius' ineffective regime was avoided?
 
Hmmm, if Magnus Maximus had managed to win in the West, he beig very Britain and Gaul oriented, could the mishaps of the next thirty years possibly be avoided if Honorius' ineffective regime was avoided?

Eh...the bigger blow for the empire was the civil war with Arbogast. If the west wins at Frigidus: then Alaric and most of the Gothic soldiers are crushed-I imagine a lot of the eastern roman army would remain intact and just surrender or defect. With Gothic power seriously weakened, I imagine Arbogast and Eugenius could essentially finish what Valens had started and Theodosius couldn't finish.

But who would replace Theodosius in the east?
 
Ricimer's actions were kind of odd. Him and Majorian were like a long time best friend tag team, so Majorian really never expected him to turn on him so quickly after one setback (which had followed a series of spectacular victories).

I subcribe to the idea that Ricimer really wanted Majorian to be a puppet, and Majorian was too competent to be one.
 
I subcribe to the idea that Ricimer really wanted Majorian to be a puppet, and Majorian was too competent to be one.

Or rather Ricimer faced pressure from the italian nobility (whom really disliked Majorian and who he had to deal with) and his failure at attempting to invade Africa gave them the ammunition they needed. He may have figured by ditching Majorian he was saving his own skin.
 
What they did in the West was even worse.

After the murder of Stilicho they celebrated by slaughtering the families of Barbarian mercenaries. When the husbands and fathers learned of this, they expressed their irritation by deserting to Alaric.

Sorry, you did not get my point.

If the Roman mob of Constantinople massacred armed military detachments of the Goth warriors trapped inside the city it speaks favorably of martial qualities of the Roman crowds in the East.

If the Roman mob of the West massacred unarmed Barbarian women and kids it speaks only about cruelty and cowardice of the Roman crowds in the West.
 
Eh...the bigger blow for the empire was the civil war with Arbogast. If the west wins at Frigidus: then Alaric and most of the Gothic soldiers are crushed-I imagine a lot of the eastern roman army would remain intact and just surrender or defect. With Gothic power seriously weakened, I imagine Arbogast and Eugenius could essentially finish what Valens had started and Theodosius couldn't finish.

But who would replace Theodosius in the east?

I don't know, I see the Goths as a possibly Empire saving infusion of manpower. The Goths, including Alaric, were very much interested in gaining Roman offices and gaining land under the aegis of the Emperor rather then try and overthrow their authority. If Honorius had just well and accepted Alaric's peace proposals then Rome would not have been sacked or sieged three times.

Otherwise, Stilicho should have destroyed them in Illyrium in 395.
 
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I don't know, I see the Goths as a possibly Empire saving infusion of manpower. The Goths, including Alaric, were very much interested in gaining Roman offices and gaining land under the aegis of the Emperor rather then try and overthrow their authority. If Honorius had just well and accepted Alaric's peace proposals then Rome would not have been sacked or sieged three times.

Otherwise, Stilicho should have destroyed them in Illyrium in 395.

Well what I meant by finish what Valens started, was destroy them as a semi-independent self governed entity within the empire, and integrate them.
 
Gaul it seems was the lynchpin for the Empire. It was primarily where the "Roman" element of the West Roman Army recruited from and was a major tax base for the Empire itself. With shenanigans ongoing in Italy and threats by the Alan's, Subei and such the locals pushed Constantine (Usurper) to revolt in their interests and when his forces took over Spain and failed to prevent the Barbarian Invasion his commander in Spain put forward his own candidate on behalf of the area.

Sounds as if Honorius' mistake was to be in Italy at all.

Had he based himself in Gaul, as Valentinian II had been. then the Legions would have been well placed both to hold the Rhine and to scotch Constantine III (or deter the British usurpers from acting at all). As for Alaric, he'd have been caught in Italy between a Western Army in Gaul and an Eastern one in Dalmatia, until he was ultimately brought to order by starvation.
 
I still say that if the Goths had been allowed through the border in a more controlled fashion, as was the normal procedure, then that would have been the best of both worlds. But things went awry, and we have the situation as happened historically.
 
I still say that if the Goths had been allowed through the border in a more controlled fashion, as was the normal procedure, then that would have been the best of both worlds. But things went awry, and we have the situation as happened historically.

Yeah, ideally Valens would have wanted to do it this way: the problem was the timing, with him having most of his troops massed in the east and limited forces to deal with the Goths effectively.
 
Yeah, ideally Valens would have wanted to do it this way: the problem was the timing, with him having most of his troops massed in the east and limited forces to deal with the Goths effectively.

The whole pre-Adrianople situation was a series of missteps, from start to the disasterous battle; it would have taken someone vaguely competent on the ground every step of the way to make sure that things went right. Theodosius would have been ideal, in my opinion, but any reasonable Roman governor could have kept the Goths from going on a rampage.
 
The whole pre-Adrianople situation was a series of missteps, from start to the disasterous battle; it would have taken someone vaguely competent on the ground every step of the way to make sure that things went right. Theodosius would have been ideal, in my opinion, but any reasonable Roman governor could have kept the Goths from going on a rampage.

Yeah, I agree it was poorly managed after they let them in. Though there wasn't much Valens himself could have done about it, since he was incapable of arriving until late on the scene.

What Valens is not excused for however, is not waiting for Gratian. Time was on his side, and there is no reason for him not to wait for Gratian. If anything, it would have been a great time for Gratian to prove himself to his soldiers and the leaders in the west, as his ascension was rife with factionalism and his support was always on a shaky footing. Valens should have been able to recognize this, rather than have this irrational view that Gratian was going to upstage him and by extension his authority-he was always going to be the senior emperor and Gratian never showed any signs of not wanting to cooperate to the fullet with Valens.
 
Emperors rarely held on to power by trusting their colleagues. Its easy for us to say that it was stupid for him to not wait for Gratian, but we weren't there.

Plus, its worth remembering that, when Valens attacked, the Gothic cavalry was away, and he may have thought he had a chance to take out the vulnerable part of their force that would have been lost by the time Gratian got there.
 
Emperors rarely held on to power by trusting their colleagues. Its easy for us to say that it was stupid for him to not wait for Gratian, but we weren't there.

Plus, its worth remembering that, when Valens attacked, the Gothic cavalry was away, and he may have thought he had a chance to take out the vulnerable part of their force that would have been lost by the time Gratian got there.

Yep.

It seems to be widely assumed that had Valens waited for Gratian, the Goths would have been crushed. But would they? After all, nobody managed to crush them on any subsequent occasion.
 
Emperors rarely held on to power by trusting their colleagues. Its easy for us to say that it was stupid for him to not wait for Gratian, but we weren't there.

Plus, its worth remembering that, when Valens attacked, the Gothic cavalry was away, and he may have thought he had a chance to take out the vulnerable part of their force that would have been lost by the time Gratian got there.
But then that doesn't explain why he delayed to have talks with Fritigern. His whole behavior was just bizarre.
 
Yep.

It seems to be widely assumed that had Valens waited for Gratian, the Goths would have been crushed. But would they? After all, nobody managed to crush them on any subsequent occasion.
The east never managed to crush them because Theodosius didn't have the men to crush them. They would have been crushed almost certainly-ounumbered by Roman forces who would be fighting on their own terms, rather than outnumbering a Roman force that is suffering from heat exhaustion. People forget that even outnumbered and even past the point where victory became impossible the Roman force proved extremely tough and the battle was still long and hard fought. This coming from an exhausted army that was outnumbemred and was unprepared for what the Goths had in store.

They would almost certainly win otherwise.
 
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