Roman Colonization Of The Americas

[Sharkani Rend]

Archon of Thessaly,

Secondly, your idea of northern barbarian slaves makes no sense. After Augustus' reign, the slave population decreased due to the lack of new slaves coming in from conquests. Slaves from northern barbarians was a mere trickle-and the roman had pretty much given up on Germania at this point.

Americas getting depopulated by germs would need population replenishment / workforce.
Germania becomes usefull land again because of RE conquerring and exploiting Americas - first potatoes and maize make it fertile land for the Romans, second because North + Eastern Europe are neighours who anyway attach and cause trouble to the Empire. Source of PoWs. They might not needed them in Americas-less OTL, but they'll need people if they have expanded biz with two more de facto empty continents.

Which also raises a point; if they've given up conquering some tribes who live across a river,

Germany was times further then Americas shipping costwise.

and if all roman troops are bogged down desperately trying to stop these barbarians, where on earth are fresh troops going to come from,

From population explosion within the RE due to better bio-tech package. Also the lands of Germania, Scythia, etc. become attractive because with better staple food cultures they become source of production / cultivable.

how are they going to get new slaves and why would they expand overseas when they've given up conquering their closest neighbours?!

They gave up conquering the closest neighbours due to distance ( in money ) and due to lack of economy there which to get harnessed by the RE.

It compliantly goes against their strategic policy now being adopted by emperors to stop overstretching.

Overstretching is relative thing - it is ratio between available resources and assets and the cost of extensive expansion. RE OTL hit the brick wall of overstretching exactly due to the marginalization of return. The goods from Americas would add intensification factor.

 

[TheGingerninja41]

No emporer in the history of Rome ever had enough authority to do this. The captains of the ships, the soldiers, and everybody else involved will regard this expedition as nothing but a death sentence.
Ok let's say Tiberius does send this fleet. When they arrive they will know nothing of the climate and won't be able to resupply their stores of food for a very very long time. Their boats were nothing like Portuguese carracks. They could reach America in clear weather but the probability of getting there without sustaining any damage, then returning home to tell people about it is close to 0%. Lets say they do accomplish this, the boats get home. There is no way in hell this fleet isn't going to mutiny.
An almost perfect analogue for our day would be Ronald Reagan sending an army to conquer the moons of Jupiter. Yeah they COULD get there, but that alone is simply not enough.

 

[Sharkani Rend]

TheGingerninja41,

No emporer in the history of Rome ever had enough authority to do this.

Even if the Emperor himself participates in it / leads it? Even if the expedition is carefully prepared for seveal years incl. collection of the best cadre all across the Empire?

Also, I emphasize that sending 50 x 500 tonnes ships with 2000-3000 people crew is NOT a major imperial effort for a polity which run / regulated MILLIONS of metric tonnes annual cargo traffic. Emperors - early or late routinely dedicated funds for massive construction project for their own please - villas, palaces ...

The captains of the ships, the soldiers, and everybody else involved will regard this expedition as nothing but a death sentence.

Not if they are recruited by oceanic sailors. Not if reward promissed is extraordinery. Not if they belong to comparativelly small circle / secret society / presided by the Emperor himself ... Not if they know that they'll sail west until the point of half or third of supplies exhausted and then turn back.

Also, there were captains used to the Atlantic - northbound traffic from Cadiz was run by professionals staying onto centuries if not millenia of tradition to trade by sea with Bisquaya, Britain, Northern sea, Scandinavia, Baltics ... these waters are much much haresher and turbilent and inconstant then anything on the Gyre route. The atlantic roman and pre-roman sailors DID know that sailing south of Spain you are pushed by water and wind currents W-SW, and that sailing north along France the prevaling winds and water currents push you East towards the continent. Hence these Romans knew the basic pattern of the Gyre. At least they knew that north the wind blows and waters flow eastwards, south - westwards...

Tiberius was capable general extinguishing fires all across the Empire.
Scyrvy? Ancients new about scurvy namely from lenghty military expeditions, and they knew counter-measures vs. it. A man fighting long war campaigns in inhospitable areas in and around the Empire can not miss the scurvy or supplies mission.

... and it is impossible such capable and charismatic leader to not find 2-3 000 people who are ready to follow him even in hell.

Ok let's say Tiberius does send this fleet. When they arrive they will know nothing of the climate and won't be able to resupply their stores of food for a very very long time.

The Carribean area is already inhabited by developed agricultural civs for re-supply. Also huge fleet CAN carry supplies for a year or more. Note the contemporary Ship Isis description - carrying enough grain to feed all men,. women and kids in Attica for a year!

so supplies are no issue.

Their boats were nothing like Portuguese carracks.

Exactamento! Roman corbitae were bigger, built more routinely, more numerous ... ... Roman shipping logistics was 100s of times bigger.

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_treasure_fleet

They could reach America in clear weather but the probability of getting there without sustaining any damage, then returning home to tell people about it is close to 0%.

They knew the weather and seasonal oceanic patterns on the east coast of Atlantic. Damages could be recovered. The number of ships is enough.
The expedition can spend 5 years in Americas - multiple landings and long stays - there is everything there needed. Thus they'll have the time to notice / evaluate the potential of the wealths there.

One simple example they'll find literaly on day 1 of landing : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Lake
Asphalt has always been and is valuable commodity.
Trinidads one is vastly more abundant and cost-accessive then Near east's one.

Lets say they do accomplish this, the boats get home. There is no way in hell this fleet isn't going to mutiny.

unsupported.

An almost perfect analogue for our day would be Ronald Reagan sending an army to conquer the moons of Jupiter. Yeah they COULD get there, but that alone is simply not enough.

In fact almost. But not Reagan time in 1980es but nearly a generation earlier - Kennedy closed 'project orion" for building nuclear-blast pusled ships which IF done would turn the Solar system in US backyard!

Yes not the tech, but motivation is the key.

 

[Sharkani Rend]

Umbral,

It ain't the size of the boat, its the motion of the ocean.
Seriously, bigger isn't always better in these matters.

Bigger and rounder. Roman corbitae used to have 3:1 max ratio between length and width.

Especially is your materials technology is lagging.

Is it? Classical period people used to lead-clad the bottom of their ships, a tech which reappeared in Europe in 18th century. Why you assume Roman materials tech was lagging ( behind ). Because of they built their ships hull first , sceleton later?

A faster, more reliable abilty to cross the ocean can be better that doing it with really big cargo capacity.

If you have smaller ships, yes faster is better due to limited supplies capacity. Bigger ships carry more supplies and are more efficient per tonne-mile.

Well, that what we've been discussing upthread...We also need to give them a good reason to want to expend the effort to take it over. They knew about Germania just cross the river, Thule, China...the reward wasn't worth the effort. Need motivation for sustained effort too.

Germania - thickly wooded, contemporary uexploitable for agriculture, inhabited by hostile barbarians possessing nothing valuable to grab.

Thule - too far, barren , uninhabited, nothing to take from there.

China - not in reach. BUT after the American ( Hesperian ) gold and silver create monetary inflation in RE, the trade MUST intensify and they'll reach China, too. By sea with their naval technology pushed hard ahead by the need. Evolved RE seafaring would bring China 60 times closer...

Massive amounts of gold will do.

Columbus :

The indigenous people he encountered, the Lucayan, Taíno, or Arawak, were peaceful and friendly. Noting their gold ear ornaments, Columbus took some of the Arawaks prisoner and insisted that they guide him to the source of the gold.[46]

from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#First_voyage

Cadis ( New World ), Byzantium ( Black sea and Caspian basin, the rivers network inland in E and N Europe ) and Alexandria ( Red sea and Indian ocean - India and East Africa ... ) will turn into the 3 major super-wealthy gateways of RE.

as in 15-19th cent. OTL the intro of American staple foodstuff would explode the RE population, and will give it whole of Europe too.

OTL Tiberian RE population was about 50-60 mln. people.
Using the OTL Irish potato example it could baloon it 7-8 fold in 2-3 centuries. + the same natural and immigration population boom in several centuries in the New World ( using the OTL population dynamics 15-20th century in both Americas ).
Northern and Eastern Europe would get as much romanized as France or Iberia.

3-4 centuries after the Tiberian Exchange the RE ( or its civ remnants ) would have combined romanized populations of high hundreds of millions , i.e. an order of magnitude greater then these of Hindustan or China.

One strange consequence would be that African population won't get boomed ( cause Romans are not interested in tropical agricuture and will overlook casawa... and white E and N European slaves shall be used to populate and exploit Americas ... and South Africa arriving there centuries before the Bantus ).

 

[Sharkani Rend]

Another serious PoD man might be Sertorius

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortunate_Isles

Plutarch, who refers to the "fortunate isles" several times in his writings, locates them firmly in the Atlantic in his vita of Sertorius. Sertorius, when struggling against a chaotic civil war in the closing years of the Roman Republic, had tidings from mariners of certain islands a few days' sail from Hispania:
“ ...where the air was never extreme, which for rain had a little silver dew, which of itself and without labour, bore all pleasant fruits to their happy dwellers, till it seemed to him that these could be no other than the Fortunate Islands, the Elysian Fields.[1] ”
It was from these men that Sertorius learned facts so beguiling that he made it his life's ambition to find the islands and retire there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Sertorius

about 5 generations before the Empire and Tiberius.

( I do not only know how discovery and openning of the Americas would reflect onto the evolution of RE later ITTL ).