Roman America

Hierophant · Jul 10, 2005

Well nothing. Here's something new. On the name Excilium, Ive seen two ways of spelling exile that way and with an S instead of a C.

Battle of Excilium

It is argueably one of the most pivotal battles in the history of the Americas, and yet it was one of the easiest victories the Romans would have.

Agüeybana and his 3,000 attacked at dawn, but the Romans were ready for them. Too any observer it would be easy to see the difference between the two sides. The Romans and there allies remain cohesive, fighting in units while the warriors of Agüeybana attacked in ragged waves that quickly broke against resistance.

The battle itself started at the south gate of the city, and as the Taino mounted the wall they were attacked with long, sharpened poles, and pushed back over the wall. However, eventually the Taino were in sufficient numbers to flood over the wall. Here the slaughter began.

Linking there shields together, the Romans attacked, crushing the Taino back in to the wall. Their Gladiae became stain with the blood of the would-be conquerors, and after only half and hour fight the Taino were in retreat, a disorganized one at that. At least 200 Taino were trampled to death in the retreat, including Agüeybana.

The battle was a complete victory for the city-state. New lands were aquired, status among the other tribes was increased, and more importantly, the Romans heavily increased their manpower supply.

One of my friends called me and talking about killing herself. I think Ill leave this for now.

Diamond · Jul 10, 2005

Battlecry said:
WI the Roman culture that this little band of Romans brings with them accelerates the development of Meso-America. Perhaps a new Roman Empire is not in the off-spring of this encounter but (due to the dark ages after the fall of Rome) technology in the Americas outpaces that of Europe. Perhaps this causes a more advanced American culture to search out and rediscover their lost motherland a hundred or so years before Columbus is born?

I think you have to take into consideration that the Meso-Americans were, technology-wise, extremely primitive, even compared to Bronze/Iron Age Romans. It would take a century or three to build up a sizable area and population approaching c.62AD Rome's technology base. I'd say Meso-America would develop much faster than OTL, but still not as fast as Europe, even allowing for the Dark Ages. When Europe rediscovers America (for the sake of argument, it's still around 1500), the Meso-Americans might be at about 1300 levels of technology - perhaps just starting to use cannons in warfare, heavily into their version of feudalism, and beginning to experiment with large deep-water ships.

Hierophant · Jul 10, 2005

But I dont even think that Feudalism will develop as it did in Europe and Asia.

And you also have to take into consideration that without the horse, technology on the battlefield could be boosted as people try and focus harder on making infantry better.

Faeelin · Jul 10, 2005

Diamond said:
I think you have to take into consideration that the Meso-Americans were, technology-wise, extremely primitive, even compared to Bronze/Iron Age Romans. It would take a century or three to build up a sizable area and population approaching c.62AD Rome's technology base. I'd say Meso-America would develop much faster than OTL, but still not as fast as Europe, even allowing for the Dark Ages. When Europe rediscovers America (for the sake of argument, it's still around 1500), the Meso-Americans might be at about 1300 levels of technology - perhaps just starting to use cannons in warfare, heavily into their version of feudalism, and beginning to experiment with large deep-water ships.

Umm. This would be a culture with great knowledge of travelling across the Carribean. Likewise, feudalism is not an ineveitable development. I could easily see a series of centralized states across Mesoamerica.

Diamond · Jul 10, 2005

Faeelin said:
Umm. This would be a culture with great knowledge of travelling across the Carribean. Likewise, feudalism is not an ineveitable development. I could easily see a series of centralized states across Mesoamerica.

Agreed; that's why I said "perhaps" they would be in their version of feudalism; I wasn't saying they would necessarily develop it, I was just using it as a comparitive tool. I think my point stands. Without horses (or, I'm assuming, any other large draft animals), they're still going to lag behind the rest of the world.

Hierophant · Jul 10, 2005

Well in my Tl they manage to bring over Oxen.

But my point is, did feudalism keep Europe and Asia back? Becasue I think not having mounts capable for use during war or insurrections will be a benefit, not a detterent.

Battlecry · Jul 10, 2005

Justin Green said:
But I dont even think that Feudalism will develop as it did in Europe and Asia.

I would tend to agree with that. I think that Feudalism came about as the result of the chaos of the dark ages and lack of a government of essentially any kind. If the region does not fall into chaos as Europe did I think that Feudalism would be highly unlikely to develop.

Justin Green said:
And you also have to take into consideration that without the horse, technology on the battlefield could be boosted as people try and focus harder on making infantry better.

Not just infantry, but all foot. My guess would be probably the greatest impact in light infantry that can move quickly and archers/slingers/javelinmen for distance.

Diamond said:
I think you have to take into consideration that the Meso-Americans were, technology-wise, extremely primitive, even compared to Bronze/Iron Age Romans. It would take a century or three to build up a sizable area and population approaching c.62AD Rome's technology base. I'd say Meso-America would develop much faster than OTL, but still not as fast as Europe, even allowing for the Dark Ages. When Europe rediscovers America (for the sake of argument, it's still around 1500), the Meso-Americans might be at about 1300 levels of technology

Granted, the Meso-Americans were working with primitive technology, but I would think that with the addition of Roman technology that the Americas would at least keep pace with the old world. After the fall of Rome there was generally a technological regression and then several hundred years of stagnation.

Diamond said:
beginning to experiment with large deep-water ships.

If anything I think the descendants of the Romans in the new world would excel at shipbuilding and would to a certain extent lose their legions. If you think of the geography of the area there are a lot of smaller islands that would not necessitate the large masses of heavy infantry to conquer/hold. The main emphasis would likely be on trade between the different islands and potentially the mainland. Given the geography the ideal defense is to prevent the landing of opposing troops on your shores.

If they do manage to land then will the opposing army be able to support itself on the land if it has to lay seige to the city? With a fortified city an enemy has problems fighting their way in even with minimal forces defending the city. Most cities in the area would be ports so given a strong navy you could supply the city with shipping and prevent the resupply of the besieging force.

Additionally given the penchant for hurricanes in the area, there would be some lessons learned in constructing ships that could handle the weather that the area can dish out to you.

DominusNovus · Jul 10, 2005

I think a naval oriented society wouldn't mesh very well with feudalism.

Hierophant · Jul 14, 2005

The next decades came and passed. The Republic grew over the island of Borikenia through peace and war until in the year 100 AD all of the island was unified.

By this time the nature of the Republic had changed. There were now two Consuls as well as one Praetor (military leader). Each were elected for a term of one year. The Senate was composed of 13 men from the 13 Houses that dominated Borikenia. Senators were elected for life by the members of their House andvoted for the Consuls and Praetors. The Senate also approved the budgets put forth by the Qaestors as well as other functions similar to the Old Republic. The Tribune of the People was composed of 50 men elected by all free men (except members of the Senatorial Houses). The Tribunes passed laws and ran the general government.

The Senatorial Houses themselves were all founded by Romans, with the exception of 4 which were descended from 4 Caciques who willingly joined the Republic.

The religion of the Republic was a simplified mix of Roman and Taino beliefs. Jupiter was the god of the Sky, Law, War, and Agriculture. Neptune was the god of the Sea, Trade, Fertility, as well as naval warfare. The two brothers were locked in a never ending war that occasionally spilled into the terrestial world through Hurricanes.

Though Seneca left politics shortly after the fateful battle that ensured the dominance of the Republic, he spent the remainder of his life cateloging all Roman knowledge and literature that could be saved. One of his most far reaching achievements was a complete dictionary of proper Latin, which ensured that the language would survive in the new world, albiet among the upper classes.

More up soon.

Hierophant · Jul 14, 2005

Everybody loves maps!

Faeelin · Jul 18, 2005

Interesting.

Battlecry · Jul 18, 2005

Definitely an interesting map. I'm surprised by the lack of control over Cuba even though they have spread into South America pretty heavily.

Wendell · Jul 19, 2005

Ae they not trading to their north and west?

Hierophant · Jul 19, 2005

Those areas are directly under Roman control as either they are ruled by the Senate and Consuls or are federated members. The Cuban Caciques were among the first to trade with the Romans after they began venturing off their island, and have adapted rapidly, forming a league against Roman aggression. Attempts at this in Venezuela failed miserably as tribes and clans were played off each other, and the tech level there was still rather low.

Wendell · Jul 20, 2005

Will the Romans construct the Panama Canal?

JimmyJimJam · Jul 20, 2005

Hermanubis said:
……………..How’s that?

Because they outnumber the Romans by several hundred thousand to one, and are at least as sophisticated in tactics and civilization?

JimmyJimJam · Jul 20, 2005

Zor said:
They most likely got it through trade, Steel would be very valuble to them. But Meso-Americans handing the Roman's butts to them...

Laughs Histericly

A Roman Legion could easily take on 5 times it's number of meso-americans and win.

Zor

You cant spell and are probably ethno-centric. The Spanish were rarely able to take on Aztec forces "five times" their size, if ever, and you think the Romans could pull it off? Put down the peyote.

Hierophant · Jul 20, 2005

The Spanish did have Indian back up in the thousands, but the Romans will to. Take for example the Battle of Excilium I posted. The Romans survived because of their weapons, tactics, and a few hundred native auxilary. Plus the opposing team had no organization and had stone weapons.

DominusNovus · Jul 20, 2005

JimmyJimJam said:
You cant spell and are probably ethno-centric. The Spanish were rarely able to take on Aztec forces "five times" their size, if ever, and you think the Romans could pull it off? Put down the peyote.

Uhhh, do you have any idea how big the technological gap was between America and the Old World? And the Spanish were fighting the Aztecs with a force of a few hundred people. The Romans wouldn't fight outright if they just had a few hundred. A diciplined war machine's strength comes from its numbers.

Besides the fact that there were no Aztecs when the Romans were around, the Romans would certainly do well, as long as they were able to ally with a local group that could keep them in supply.

bill_bruno · Jul 20, 2005

Alternate routes?

If word gets back, will this inspire traders/explorers to try alternate routes. I'm thinking of expeditions down to the westernmost bulge of Africa across to the mouth of the Amazon and expeditions from Britannia following the OTL Viking route.

Also, aren't you asking a bit much for these colonists to organize like an old-style Republican city-state. The civic discipline was a thing of the past and many of these trader-colonists wouldn't even be Romans (the trading missions in India were largely inhabited by Greeks and Egyptians).