Or, does the Empire come to dominbate the New World, and lose control of the old one? What might the Romans call this lanmass. My guess is Atlantis...MrP said:Wendell, *Groan*
How about a loose confederation of coastal trading cities stretching up and down America? They need not even be allied with the Latino civ, but simply inspired by its maritime example. After a few hundred years one of them's going to be sending people back across the Atlantic, since they know there's something there. Perhaps a great deal more secretive re the Natives (Europeans) in their efforts, though.
Roman America
- Thread starter Faeelin
- Start date
Hendryk
Banned
Interestingly, this TL's Mesoamericans would not look physically that different from the ones in OTL, with the blend of South European and Native American features. But would the settlers develop a kind of creole culture, fancying themselves a natural aristocracy and coopting local elites, or would a true cultural intermingling take place?
Hendryk said:
I would think that given the general mentality of the Roman Empire at the POD there would be a greater liklihood of the settlers fancying themselves the natural aristocracy. That being said, I think that given the type of settlers which have been previously discussed here a good argument could be made that there would be more of a true cultural intermingling.
My vote would be for a true cultural intermingling, I think it provides a more interesting ATL.
MrP
Banned
A synthesis could surely work. The Romans were perfectly happy to pick up gods from their territories and use them themselves. Just look at the Mithraean shrines in Britain. I doubt the Romans would actively proselytise, but the most violent outcome (religion-wise) could be analogous to how I understand the Norse picked up Christianity. Kick me, if I'm wrong, someone, but didn't they see Christ as a more powerful warrior god (at least at first) and switched over for increased battle-winning capability?
So the Romans turn up with a few ships, they have advanced metallurgical techniques and various other bits and bobs. They unify/take over a few local societies and build some temples to Atlantaean Poseidon/Neptune/local sea-deity. Everyone believes in/pays lip service to the god of the sea, rather than my God A, who rules the sea, and is incompatible with your God B, who you foolishly think rules the sea.
So the Romans turn up with a few ships, they have advanced metallurgical techniques and various other bits and bobs. They unify/take over a few local societies and build some temples to Atlantaean Poseidon/Neptune/local sea-deity. Everyone believes in/pays lip service to the god of the sea, rather than my God A, who rules the sea, and is incompatible with your God B, who you foolishly think rules the sea.
Wendell said:Christianity was a new religion
Not by the time it got to the Americas.
MrP said:
Definitely historical precedent for that.
One of the assumptions that people seem to have been working with here is that there is an early encounter with the indigenous peoples. Wouldn't it be possible for a couple hundred Romans (I'm thinking at most five ships of exiles) to land on an island in the Carribean where there would not be an encounter with natives for several years or decades?
It seems like it would almost be necessary for the Romans to be somewhat established in the area since we would most likely not be looking at a large enough (or well equipped enough) group to make a large impact on the area without simply being assimilated into local culture fairly quickly. If the Roman exiles could establish their own village in the area it seems to me that they would be much more likely to have a significant impact on this ATL of the Americas. Perhaps encountering locals after a year or two, without enough contact to create immediate territorial disputes. This would allow for the building of trade between the parties and the exchange of goods/information between factions since neither perceives the other as an immediate rival.
Unfortunately this does presume that the exiles are, on average, at least somewhat well educated and capable of actually transferring some of the elements of "civilization" rather than being largely simple criminals. My assumption is that: were an undertaking such as crossing the Atlantic to be attempted by an uneducated group of exiles that it would totally fail. Given Nero's madness it would not be unreasonable to theorize he would choose to exile some of the more enlightened (educated) members of society (unfortunately this also falls into the category of "too convenient to the story to really feel plausible").
The thing is just about every island they could land on had been inhabited at the time. Though theres a good chance they would encounter the ancestors of the Taino indians, who were fairly peaceful. The Arawak and the later Caribs didnt come to the Caribbean from South America for anoth couple hundred years.
So when they land they will most likely find a fairly peaceful society where they could use their skills in exchange for neccesities initially. So say the Roman exiles build a few shops to make carts, leather goods, iron tools, and maybe build a few small fishing ships. By this time there established and they start building bigger ships to take their goods around the Caribean. Probably at this time Latin mixed with various indigenous languages arises as a trade language, similar to how Arabic became Swahili in East Africa.
So when they land they will most likely find a fairly peaceful society where they could use their skills in exchange for neccesities initially. So say the Roman exiles build a few shops to make carts, leather goods, iron tools, and maybe build a few small fishing ships. By this time there established and they start building bigger ships to take their goods around the Caribean. Probably at this time Latin mixed with various indigenous languages arises as a trade language, similar to how Arabic became Swahili in East Africa.
So building off what I started.
Seneca and his men arrive in Puerto Rico with 3 ships, 1 being lost and another being seperated and returning home. The number of men who arrive in Puerto Rico is lets say 285. With them they bring 2 forges and forge equipment, some farming tools, tanning tools, carpentry tools, as well as 45 sheep and 12 oxen, and 3 bulls.
The Romans called the land Borikenia, after the Taino word for the island Borinquen. At the site of OTL San Juan the Romans built a fortress and later a city, Excilium (exile).
Should I continue? Ive got some 4th activities to attend, but I could probably do more later tonight.
Seneca and his men arrive in Puerto Rico with 3 ships, 1 being lost and another being seperated and returning home. The number of men who arrive in Puerto Rico is lets say 285. With them they bring 2 forges and forge equipment, some farming tools, tanning tools, carpentry tools, as well as 45 sheep and 12 oxen, and 3 bulls.
The Romans called the land Borikenia, after the Taino word for the island Borinquen. At the site of OTL San Juan the Romans built a fortress and later a city, Excilium (exile).
Should I continue? Ive got some 4th activities to attend, but I could probably do more later tonight.
MrP
Banned
Please do. I'll be interested to see the effects of the Romans over the decades. Out of personal interest, do the Romans have much in the way of scrolls? Clearly they'll have an Iliad, Odyssey and so on (or will be able to recreate them from memory), but much else? Scientific treatises, perhaps? Maybe Hero of Alexander's steam engine is reevaluated when slave labour is scarce
Another bit before I go.
The city of Excilium prosper in its first few years. Really only a village, its Roman style buildings and its breastwork wall where what set them apart from their neighbors.
One of the first things that were done was to establish a simplified Republican style government. All free men where allowed to vote for 7 Senators. The Senators then chose one of the number for the role of Consul. The term of the Senators and the Consul were both for 1 year, though this would change in times to come.
As you can imagine, in a colony of all men, tensions grew higher and higher with their neighbors. However Consular Seneca did a fair job of keeping the peace, and through trade and regular romance, a trickle of native women were brought to the city.
However in its third year of existence, one of the southern Cacique, Agüeybana, in an effort to improve his prestige among the other Caciques decided to goad the Romans into a war. This war would destroy their threat to him and would allow him sole access to the Roman tools, and better yet weapons.
During the first three years the Romans had done their best to build a defensive force, though they relied upon the fortifications of Excilium for their survival. Several of the exiles had served with the Legions back in the Republic (a very common phrase among the Exiles) and they provided the core of a professional force of part time soldiers, numbering about 120 men.
At the time of the war the colony had swelled in size to 550 persons, as several natives, some exiles themselves or just interested in the Roman way chose to settle in and around Excilium.
In the late spring of 87 AD Agüeybana arrived at the walls of Excilium with nearly 3000 wariors. During the winter the Romans had prepared, shifting their forges from tools that would have been sold to the tribes of the island, to weapons of war. Also during this time the Legion had grown as several more Romans, and more natives enlisted with them. Seneca also did his best to find allies among the other Caciques, but managed only to a few hundred more warriors.
Next:
The Battle of Excilium
The city of Excilium prosper in its first few years. Really only a village, its Roman style buildings and its breastwork wall where what set them apart from their neighbors.
One of the first things that were done was to establish a simplified Republican style government. All free men where allowed to vote for 7 Senators. The Senators then chose one of the number for the role of Consul. The term of the Senators and the Consul were both for 1 year, though this would change in times to come.
As you can imagine, in a colony of all men, tensions grew higher and higher with their neighbors. However Consular Seneca did a fair job of keeping the peace, and through trade and regular romance, a trickle of native women were brought to the city.
However in its third year of existence, one of the southern Cacique, Agüeybana, in an effort to improve his prestige among the other Caciques decided to goad the Romans into a war. This war would destroy their threat to him and would allow him sole access to the Roman tools, and better yet weapons.
During the first three years the Romans had done their best to build a defensive force, though they relied upon the fortifications of Excilium for their survival. Several of the exiles had served with the Legions back in the Republic (a very common phrase among the Exiles) and they provided the core of a professional force of part time soldiers, numbering about 120 men.
At the time of the war the colony had swelled in size to 550 persons, as several natives, some exiles themselves or just interested in the Roman way chose to settle in and around Excilium.
In the late spring of 87 AD Agüeybana arrived at the walls of Excilium with nearly 3000 wariors. During the winter the Romans had prepared, shifting their forges from tools that would have been sold to the tribes of the island, to weapons of war. Also during this time the Legion had grown as several more Romans, and more natives enlisted with them. Seneca also did his best to find allies among the other Caciques, but managed only to a few hundred more warriors.
Next:
The Battle of Excilium
MrP
Banned
Interesting, Justin. Just a couple of things. First, I believe it's Exilium, no C. Second, if the Romans want to reconstruct a Republican form of government - which seems probable given that an autocrat sent them to the far side of the world - there would be two consuls, rather than one. Checks and balances and all that, y'know.
Enjoying it so far. I look forward to the battle
Enjoying it so far. I look forward to the battle
I'm liking Justin's TL so far, though I did start devloping my own as well my slightly different assumptions.
Justin's TL has more and better names than mine, but I'll post mine up here too once I flesh it out a little better. The one thing I haven't decided yet is if I want to have Christianity involved in the ATL at all. The options I'm considering is either just ignoring it and sticking with the tradional Roman theology, or taking Christianity and making a nice version of it where its actually about faith rather than power (I know, religion is ALWAYS about power). Thoughts?
- The families of the Exiles are exiled as well.
- Only have supplies for the voyage (no forge, livestock, etc.)
- Survival after founding the settlement is initially very harsh.
Justin's TL has more and better names than mine, but I'll post mine up here too once I flesh it out a little better. The one thing I haven't decided yet is if I want to have Christianity involved in the ATL at all. The options I'm considering is either just ignoring it and sticking with the tradional Roman theology, or taking Christianity and making a nice version of it where its actually about faith rather than power (I know, religion is ALWAYS about power). Thoughts?
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Ive been thinking of this alot the last few days, here are some ideas I have that id like comments on.
The Romans expand though conquest and diplomacy onto all of the Antillian isles. Eventual expansion onto mainland.
Im thinking that the Antillian Roman state will be quite different from the states that arise on the mainland. The islands will have adopted the Roman culture much more and a offshoot of Latin will gain predominance. The islands will also retain their Republican roots, though Im thinking in time Great Houses and Guilds will rise in power and become the powerbase of the Republic.
The Mainland will develop differently. At first there will be a slow migration of Romanized Antillians onto the mainland, thereby pushing them onward tech and culturally wise. Once the Islands are unified, perhaps power hungry military leaders could launch raids onto the mainland, conquering in the Name of the Republic, but governing themselves. I envision the 600s-700s that most of the lands of the Gulf and Caribbean would be unified, but for a short time. A civil war would ensue and the mainland would fracture into several states while the islands would be a republic.
By about this time with the great movements of peoples a disease like cowpox jumps from oxen to humans, and we have a die off level at about 35%, with the hardest hit areas being the heavily settled Antillian islands. This would set back any move to explore and expand across the Atlantic.
Military wise Im really interested in how they will develop without calvary and how this will effect them culturally. I know some might say that llamas could be eventually used as mounts, but id like to stay away from that and go the path not taken by others.
What Im thinking is that armies in the beginning are nothing really but knock offs of the Roman legions. Then as time progresses, maybe in the 800s someone invents a repeating crossbow similar to the chinese one. I think later on in the 1100s gunpowder will be invented. Does anybody know if it is possible for the flintlock to be devloped without going through matchlocks and wheelocks first?
I kind invision tech wise that the romanized lands would be further ahead in some ways tbut retarded in others. For example they would develop windmills, inplaces like Venezuela and Cetral America, flintlocks and rifled cannons, they will develop a numeric system that includes 0, and maybe a few other things, ideas?
I also think that some areas they would be retarded in would be naval technology, anything that really needs a fast mount or animal labor, does anyone else have any ideas?
I started thinking about what not having a horse (or any mount) would do to warfare and how it would effect them culturally. In Europe up until after the 100s years war Im fairly sure that the majority of the armies of western europe were composed of mostly calavary, with support untis of pike and bowmen. It costs alot of money to buy a horse and to keep it healthy. So from the begining the rich and powerful were the best soldiers on the battlefield, and the poor where more or less kept down.
The horse facilitated feudalism in Europe and Asia to a great degree. How would things in America go if there were no horses? Im thinking that things would be much more free-er then anywhere else really. Sure your going to have rich, powerful men in control, but thats regardless of the time period. But in Eurasia the monarchs and nobles were able to enforce there will by granting rights to a smaller group of people due to mounted soldiers being so much more effective against footsoldiers at the time. So if there are no horses, rulers will have to broaden there pool of enfranchised supporters, or keep it open. And if a ruler gets to unpopular, it will be much easy for the people to overthrow them.
So what I envision is that their will be different classes, but with more mobility between the them. I dont think there will be many hereditary monarchies, but more elective ones that are really nothing more than Grecoroman style dictatorships and Republics similar to the Italian ones.
So what do you think?
The Romans expand though conquest and diplomacy onto all of the Antillian isles. Eventual expansion onto mainland.
Im thinking that the Antillian Roman state will be quite different from the states that arise on the mainland. The islands will have adopted the Roman culture much more and a offshoot of Latin will gain predominance. The islands will also retain their Republican roots, though Im thinking in time Great Houses and Guilds will rise in power and become the powerbase of the Republic.
The Mainland will develop differently. At first there will be a slow migration of Romanized Antillians onto the mainland, thereby pushing them onward tech and culturally wise. Once the Islands are unified, perhaps power hungry military leaders could launch raids onto the mainland, conquering in the Name of the Republic, but governing themselves. I envision the 600s-700s that most of the lands of the Gulf and Caribbean would be unified, but for a short time. A civil war would ensue and the mainland would fracture into several states while the islands would be a republic.
By about this time with the great movements of peoples a disease like cowpox jumps from oxen to humans, and we have a die off level at about 35%, with the hardest hit areas being the heavily settled Antillian islands. This would set back any move to explore and expand across the Atlantic.
Military wise Im really interested in how they will develop without calvary and how this will effect them culturally. I know some might say that llamas could be eventually used as mounts, but id like to stay away from that and go the path not taken by others.
What Im thinking is that armies in the beginning are nothing really but knock offs of the Roman legions. Then as time progresses, maybe in the 800s someone invents a repeating crossbow similar to the chinese one. I think later on in the 1100s gunpowder will be invented. Does anybody know if it is possible for the flintlock to be devloped without going through matchlocks and wheelocks first?
I kind invision tech wise that the romanized lands would be further ahead in some ways tbut retarded in others. For example they would develop windmills, inplaces like Venezuela and Cetral America, flintlocks and rifled cannons, they will develop a numeric system that includes 0, and maybe a few other things, ideas?
I also think that some areas they would be retarded in would be naval technology, anything that really needs a fast mount or animal labor, does anyone else have any ideas?
I started thinking about what not having a horse (or any mount) would do to warfare and how it would effect them culturally. In Europe up until after the 100s years war Im fairly sure that the majority of the armies of western europe were composed of mostly calavary, with support untis of pike and bowmen. It costs alot of money to buy a horse and to keep it healthy. So from the begining the rich and powerful were the best soldiers on the battlefield, and the poor where more or less kept down.
The horse facilitated feudalism in Europe and Asia to a great degree. How would things in America go if there were no horses? Im thinking that things would be much more free-er then anywhere else really. Sure your going to have rich, powerful men in control, but thats regardless of the time period. But in Eurasia the monarchs and nobles were able to enforce there will by granting rights to a smaller group of people due to mounted soldiers being so much more effective against footsoldiers at the time. So if there are no horses, rulers will have to broaden there pool of enfranchised supporters, or keep it open. And if a ruler gets to unpopular, it will be much easy for the people to overthrow them.
So what I envision is that their will be different classes, but with more mobility between the them. I dont think there will be many hereditary monarchies, but more elective ones that are really nothing more than Grecoroman style dictatorships and Republics similar to the Italian ones.
So what do you think?