ROLLING THUNDER unrestrained

Is there any way that LBJ after 1965 could've made Op ROLLING THUNDER into a definitive no holds barred strategic bombing campaign against North Vietnam (by removing the restrictive rules of engagement imposed on US aviators, for 1), similar to what happened during LINEBACKER I & II during 1972 ? How much better off would the US war effort & South Vietnam have been had LeMay's B52s been unleashed earlier to bomb the crap out of Hanoi and Haiphong, to the extent that they were later ?
 
In the Early days of Vietnam most troops though we were going in like we did in Korea and not how we did . Some of the early units sent there thought they were going to be there for the Duration of the War ,
 
Last edited:
Depends. How far to you want it to go? Bombing dykes and dams so the countryside is flooded? I'm sure it can go quite far.
 
Possibilities include:

1 - NV driven to the table earlier, officially out of the war earlier. US still fighting NVA-supplied VC guerrilla war.

2 - NV stands firm. US gets accused of atrocities. Pictures of fried NV children on the news. Things may deteriorate on the home front faster. As OTL more or less, but with a higher body count. NV industry disperses.

3 - China pissed beyond belief, intervenes. Things get a whole lot uglier. Soviet Union does dance of joy.
 
Possibilities include:

1 - NV driven to the table earlier, officially out of the war earlier. US still fighting NVA-supplied VC guerrilla war.

2 - NV stands firm. US gets accused of atrocities. Pictures of fried NV children on the news. Things may deteriorate on the home front faster. As OTL more or less, but with a higher body count. NV industry disperses.

3 - China pissed beyond belief, intervenes. Things get a whole lot uglier. Soviet Union does dance of joy.

My thoughts exactly. I am starting to see the growing trend on this site again of "bomb the holy fuck out of them, twice; then we'll win." People on this site need to really start considering the human cost that is involved with war. I believe that members should try reading up on LOAC, ROE, UN Declaration of Human Rights AND the Geneva Convention before randomly posting a thread about vaporizing villages and bombing civilians back to the stone age.
 

wormyguy

Banned
3 - China pissed beyond belief, intervenes. Things get a whole lot uglier. Soviet Union does dance of joy.

No chance of that happening. China and Vietnam, with the inclusion of their Communist parties hate each other. China and Vietnam fought a border war in 1979, and the Chinese supplied the Khmer Rouge in their war with Vietnam. They have competing claims over several island chains, which have occasionally become violent. The Vietnamese are also apparently still quite incensed about their treatment at the hands of the Chinese 600 years ago (much like those Sunni and Shia who are still angry about things that happened in the 600s, and people in former Yugoslavia who will rattle off atrocities from 800 years ago). Last year, an American warship docked in Ho Chi Minh City/Saigon, and it was greeted with smiling schoolchildren and flowers. A Chinese ship later visited, and it was greeted with hundreds of protesters.
 

Typo

Banned
The Vietnamese were pretty good about sucking up to USSR and China until 1975 actually
 
No chance of that happening. China and Vietnam, with the inclusion of their Communist parties hate each other. China and Vietnam fought a border war in 1979, and the Chinese supplied the Khmer Rouge in their war with Vietnam. They have competing claims over several island chains, which have occasionally become violent. The Vietnamese are also apparently still quite incensed about their treatment at the hands of the Chinese 600 years ago (much like those Sunni and Shia who are still angry about things that happened in the 600s, and people in former Yugoslavia who will rattle off atrocities from 800 years ago). Last year, an American warship docked in Ho Chi Minh City/Saigon, and it was greeted with smiling schoolchildren and flowers. A Chinese ship later visited, and it was greeted with hundreds of protesters.

Not saying it's the most likely event, but still, "enemy of my enemy". Whether China likes Vietnam or not, I wouldn't discount China not wanting to tolerate additional US presence so near it's southern borders, particularly one so keen on massive bombing of urban areas.
 

Deleted member 1487

My thoughts exactly. I am starting to see the growing trend on this site again of "bomb the holy fuck out of them, twice; then we'll win." People on this site need to really start considering the human cost that is involved with war. I believe that members should try reading up on LOAC, ROE, UN Declaration of Human Rights AND the Geneva Convention before randomly posting a thread about vaporizing villages and bombing civilians back to the stone age.


Well considering what the US did with strategic airpower historically, including during the Vietnam war, it really doesn't give two shits about these conventions. Remember what happened to Tokyo with napalm in the closing days of that war and tell me whether you think the US would give it a second thought before killing women and children. The only reason we did not do this in Vietnam was the fear that the Soviets would threaten to go nuclear or that China would intervene.
 
Well considering what the US did with strategic airpower historically, including during the Vietnam war, it really doesn't give two shits about these conventions. Remember what happened to Tokyo with napalm in the closing days of that war and tell me whether you think the US would give it a second thought before killing women and children. The only reason we did not do this in Vietnam was the fear that the Soviets would threaten to go nuclear or that China would intervene.

I am really not seeing your point about Tokyo. I wasn't aware we were talking strategic bombing in WW2. I thought we were talking about Vietnam. Believe it or not, civilians were on the minds of U.S. military leadership, "does the phrase "winning the hearts and minds" by General Westmoreland ring a bell? They weren't shallow words said for the hell of it.
 

Deleted member 1487

I am really not seeing your point about Tokyo. I wasn't aware we were talking strategic bombing in WW2. I thought we were talking about Vietnam. Believe it or not, civilians were on the minds of U.S. military leadership, "does the phrase "winning the hearts and minds" by General Westmoreland ring a bell? They weren't shallow words said for the hell of it.

Read up on the Vietnam war. We bombed cities and vaporized hundreds of thousands of civilians in the north. Hearts and Minds was only for South Vietnamese, and even then we still killed tens of thousands in air raids and combat sweeps. In fact during Vietnam over 3 million people died in the north, the vast majority civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

Rolling thunder historical was horrific in its brutality and I am arguing that the only reason it wasn't worse was because the threat of force from China and/or the Soviet Union.

Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Read up on the Vietnam war. We bombed cities and vaporized hundreds of thousands of civilians in the north. Hearts and Minds was only for South Vietnamese, and even then we still killed tens of thousands in air raids and combat sweeps. In fact during Vietnam over 3 million people died in the north, the vast majority civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

Rolling thunder historical was horrific in its brutality and I am arguing that the only reason it wasn't worse was because the threat of force from China and/or the Soviet Union.

Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

Neather side was justified in there actions in the Peace keeping action there .With the VC giveing little Kid Hand Gernades with the Pins pulled to run up to GI's To The VC killing Vilage leaders and the US Bombing the hell out of anything that moved .
You have to remberWAR IS HELL
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm not saying that the NVA nor VC were the "good guys" by any stretch. But I am saying that the US did commit some pretty awful atrocities and would have gone further, but didn't because of the threat of escalation.
 
I'm not saying that the NVA nor VC were the "good guys" by any stretch. But I am saying that the US did commit some pretty awful atrocities and would have gone further, but didn't because of the threat of escalation.

No, they did not go further because threat of escalation. They didn't go further due to the fact although Operation Rolling Thunder, Operation Linebacker and Operation Linebacker II were a complete success; it wasn't enough to curtail the land war. They stopped because of futility...
 

Deleted member 1487

No, they did not go further because threat of escalation. They didn't go further due to the fact although Operation Rolling Thunder, Operation Linebacker and Operation Linebacker II were a complete success; it wasn't enough to curtail the land war. They stopped because of futility...

Read the link I posted, Rolling Thunder was a complete strategic failure and was called off after achieving NONE of its goals.
 
Top