Robert Moses Hates Cars, Loves Mass Transit (A NYC POD)

Electric Monk

Electric Monk

Robert Moses was essentially the guy that remade NYC from the 1930s to the '60s, by opening up the city to cars and downplaying the importance of public transit as well as being a racist SOB.

Let's flip it. Although alt-Robert Moses is just as powerful and successful as OTL's Robert Moses he's (IMO) a good guy and instead of disliking blacks, preventing mass transit from accessing his shiny new parks, and so forth he pretty much does the opposite.

Considering that in the field of urban planning Robert Moses was one of the most influential figures post-war him having a different take on things not only alters NYC, but should also effect major cities in general.

(For sports fans, alt-Moses mean the Brooklyn Dodgers stay there instead of moving to L.A.)

(For rail fans, alt-Moses saves the NYC streetcars that are still around, a bunch of el-trains, and possibly saves streetcars in other cities like L.A. as well as surely needing to build more suburban lines if he isn't building a lot of roads.)

(For NYC folk this not only has a decent chance at saving Penn Station, it also means a lot more el-track: IRT Ninth Avenue Line, most of the IRT Second Avenue El in Manhattan, and the BMT Fifth and Third Avenue Lines and most of the BMT Fulton Street Line in Brooklyn will all be saved. A concern for capacity will outweigh concerns over redundancy.)


So, NYC embarks on a major expansion of the subway system as Moses uses the vast bridge toll revenue he controls to seize the capital construction part of the transit system and put it under him, instead of the city.

Furthermore his mass transit focused ideas will act as a powerful counterweight to the big car companies, and should save streetcars and expand subways in major cities.

He can't stop suburbs, but mass transit plus presumably enhanced commuter rail will also serve to slow widespread ones down.

I'm not sure if we can get Europe/Japan style highspeed rail out of this, but it's quite possible in a more transit/rail focused United States.


Thoughts?
 
Electric Monk

Electric Monk

Because Robert Moses was crazy-brilliant at accumulating power & authority, keeping it, and using it.

So changing part of his personality seems like the easiest way to accomplish this, barring a fictional character that basically is alt-Robert Moses.
 
TheMann

TheMann

Moses needs a anti-Moses. He's a bigot and I don't think you can make him love mass transit, because Mass Transit tends to support poorer people, and those poorer people in 1930s-1960s America tend to be black.
 
Electric Monk

Electric Monk

TheMann said:
Moses needs a anti-Moses. He's a bigot and I don't think you can make him love mass transit, because Mass Transit tends to support poorer people, and those poorer people in 1930s-1960s America tend to be black.
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That's the point. Real Moses was a genius, but he used it for evil. Alt-Moses is a genius, but uses it for good.

I see no problem with a POD involving a person instead of an event.
 

alt_historian

Electric Monk said:
That's the point. Real Moses was a genius, but he used it for evil. Alt-Moses is a genius, but uses it for good.

I see no problem with a POD involving a person instead of an event.
Click to expand...
Me neither. How many alt-Hitler threads do we have now? :D

OK, so there's a flipped version of this guy, but with the same skills... I would think this would indeed have all sorts of knock-on effects, in the same way that the London congestion charge was copied or studied by various other cities.

Um... nothing further, I'm afraid...
 

JohnJacques

Banned
Maybe a change in the New Deal could change his view on things.

Perhaps a pre-WW2 desegregation of the armed forces, as FDR promised?

That could see Moses's views change, especially in the post-war period. After all, Black soldiers from Korea are commonly considered to be responsible for some of the softening of racial attitudes.
 

octaviuz

He actually doesn't need to change his views. Much like the start of the first World War, I suspect that we are living in the ATL when I look at Robert Moses. He actually started off as a social progressive. His later attitudes almost seem to belong to a different person. It seems more probable that he would stay himself than that he would a have a 180 degree shift in his views.
 
Electric Monk

Electric Monk

octaviuz said:
He actually doesn't need to change his views. Much like the start of the first World War, I suspect that we are living in the ATL when I look at Robert Moses. He actually started off as a social progressive. His later attitudes almost seem to belong to a different person. It seems more probable that he would stay himself than that he would a have a 180 degree shift in his views.
Click to expand...

Interesting. What I know about Moses comes from his work, not his earlier life.

So sure, let's take that, alt-Moses keeps his socially progressive views and develops a love for mass transit (perhaps the Great Depression pushes him into thinking cars are doomed because they're too expensive, or something along those lines).
 
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