Robert E. Lee stays with the Union

If I remember correctly there was some dispute about the feelings of the people of Virginia (including what became West Virginia) on leaving the Union. Had Lee been persuaded that the Sessession was illegitimate maybe he would have supported the Union.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
If Lee had taken the offer he would have ranked as Major General in late March or early April 1861, Little Mac was promoted to Major General in May 1861, This is Regular Army commissions that out rank Brevet or Volunteer commissions. An example while G.A. Custer was a Major General of Volunteers he died a Lt.Col. the highest rank he held as a Regular.

With this in mind Lee would outrank Little Mac and be second only to Scott.

67th, I can only suppose you were mistaking Mac's commission as a MG of volunteers as out ranking Lee who was a Col. of Regulars when offered command in early 1861. In fact Mac may not have gotten his Regular commission as a General in May had Lee taken the command in April.

Lee, McClellan and Fremont were all offered Major General of Regulars. The ranks were to conform to their then seniority on the Army List.

Now, in the US Army of the time seniority was a weird (to my eyes) thing. It was based upon the date of promotion to Field Officer, which fixed your place in the Army List. Now, by a strange series of events, McClellan was senior, since Lee was still a Captain (Bvt Maj, which didn't count) in 1855 when McClellan was Commissioned Major of the 1st Cavalry (Lee was Commissioned Lt Col of the 2nd Cavalry later that year).

Fremont was senior to either of them, having been promoted Lt Col in the regular Army in 1847.

All three would have been promoted Major General of Regulars on 14th May 1861 (when ALL the offers of promotions etc. were actioned). The Commissions would have been handed out in order of seniority on the active list, Fremont, McClellan, then Lee.
 
Lee, McClellan and Fremont were all offered Major General of Regulars. The ranks were to conform to their then seniority on the Army List.

Now, in the US Army of the time seniority was a weird (to my eyes) thing. It was based upon the date of promotion to Field Officer, which fixed your place in the Army List. Now, by a strange series of events, McClellan was senior, since Lee was still a Captain (Bvt Maj, which didn't count) in 1855 when McClellan was Commissioned Major of the 1st Cavalry (Lee was Commissioned Lt Col of the 2nd Cavalry later that year).

Fremont was senior to either of them, having been promoted Lt Col in the regular Army in 1847.

All three would have been promoted Major General of Regulars on 14th May 1861 (when ALL the offers of promotions etc. were actioned). The Commissions would have been handed out in order of seniority on the active list, Fremont, McClellan, then Lee.
Was Mac on the active list before he returned in 1861 having resigned his commission in 1857 ? For that matter was Fremont still active? Although with the "Great Pathfinder" it is irrelevant as he would not have gotten a command after his campaign in Missouri. On a side note according to the Wiki article on Mac he was second only to Scott when he was promoted in May.

Edit: On further study (not in Wiki but Biographies of the two men) it appears that when Mac resigned in 1857 he did so at the Regular rank of Capitan of Cavalry to which he was promoted in the March of 1855,on March 3, 1855 Robert Edward Lee recieved his commision as Lt.Col. of the Second Cavalry as A.S. Johnston's second in command. Lee is senior to McClellan.
 
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burmafrd

Banned
The date on which you get your current promotion is critical. Lee was much more respected in the Military and by Scott and pretty much everyone. He would have gotten his commision in such a way as to see to it he was senior. The previous permanent ranks ONLY work if you both get your commissions of current rank the same day. Just give lee his one day early and its all moot.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
The date on which you get your current promotion is critical. Lee was much more respected in the Military and by Scott and pretty much everyone. He would have gotten his commision in such a way as to see to it he was senior. The previous permanent ranks ONLY work if you both get your commissions of current rank the same day. Just give lee his one day early and its all moot.

Nope, all were signed off by the President on the same day. If they'd wanted to made Lee senior, they could have, but they didn't.
 
Nope, all were signed off by the President on the same day. If they'd wanted to made Lee senior, they could have, but they didn't.
On May 14th Virginia had been in " Rebellion " for almost a month as Lee was Commander of all Virginia forces and had resigned from the US Army I doubt if he was on the promotion list.
As to whether or not McClellan would of outranked Lee and automatically taken over the Eastern Army had he been there, you are working under a false assumption. Fremont was given command in WV shortly after his bungling of his Missouri command. A short while latter this command was reorganized and Pope was put in charge, with Fremont as his second in command. As Lee was considered the best available and had Scott's total support it is unlikely Mac would be given this Slot, even had he been senior to Lee which he was not. Once more McClellan never rose higher than Capitan of Regulars before he resigned in 1857, a rank he was promoted to in March of 1855, on the 3rd day of the same month Lee was promoted to Lt. Colonel.
 

bard32

Banned
The POD must involve Virginia not seceding from the Union. If Virginia goes, Lee goes. If Virginia stays, Lee stays. And the consequences of Virginia remaining in the Union are just as significant, it not more so, than those of Lee remaining loyal.

That's right. In the historical note at the end of James L. Nelson's Civil War novel Glory in the Name, James L. Nelson says that commander of the
Gosport, (Norfolk), Navy Yard, was a man of seventy. I can't think of his name. He also said that he was being advised by men who were secessionists. He'd ordered the screw frigate Merrimack to Philadelphia, only
to change his mind, multiple times, and had it turned around. When Norfolk
fell, the Confederates were able to refloat it and convert it into the CSS Virginia. Montgomery Blair, whose house is the official guest house of the U.S.
government, had offered Lee, on Lincoln's request, the post of Commander of
the Army of the Potomac.
 

bard32

Banned
And even if he does stay, he's going to have a whole lot of incompetent subordinates. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least if his fate somewhat mirrors that of OTL McClellan.

McClellan was an incompetent boob. If Lee stays, chances are Stonewall Jackson would stay as well because he needed Stonewall Jackson to translate
his orders. When he was killed at Chancellorsville, supposedly by friendly fire,
Lee said the following: "I feel like I've lost my right arm."
 
McClellan was an incompetent boob. If Lee stays, chances are Stonewall Jackson would stay as well because he needed Stonewall Jackson to translate
his orders. When he was killed at Chancellorsville, supposedly by friendly fire,
Lee said the following: "I feel like I've lost my right arm."


McClellan wasn't a complete incompetent. Half of the reason the Penisular Campaign went belly up was because Lincoln kept back 42 000 troops who were earmarked to slot in next to V Corps. McClellan, however, made the mistake by not altering his plans accordingly, although to be fair he was thinking Lincoln would change his mind & release those 42 000 troops.

If McClellan had a true failing it was he was too methodical & cautious. This made him slow whereas someone like Grant wasn't by taking risks unacceptable to McClellan. Nevertheless McClellan was a superb organiser & drill instructor. He wasn't bad either in coming up with imaginative & brillant strategy. Certainly the concept of the 1862 Penisular Campaign was beyond conventional military thinking at the time.

Next is I highly doubt, just because Lee would remain in the Union, that Jackson would have likewise remained in the Union. I think it's fair to say he was far more pro-state than Lee ever was. But fundamentally, even if Jackson headed North, there's little guarantee that he'll get a senior job. Instead the likes of Burnside, McDowell, Pope, & about another dozen incompetents (all far worse than McClellan may I add), are all going to have senior positions. And Lee will have to rely on them, not Jackson, throughout 1862: meaning Lee will face several defeats as a result.

And Jackson died at Chancellorsville :eek: Well I never knew... :rolleyes::D
 

burmafrd

Banned
Lee had more then a few duds in his generals and still did quite well. Most of the scewups that put the AOP behind the 8 ball belonged to its commanders.

By the way 67th, if you really think that Lee would not have been the one to command, then you really are out to lunch.
 
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