Robert E. Lee abolitionist?

I am doing research for my upcoming TL, and I was wondering that, if in a Confederacy that acheived independence in 1862, with Lee's views on slavery, what are the chances of him becoming an abolitionist, or something near enough to it as you can get from the CS? Would he be able to inspire others to take up his cause?
 
Lee was opposed to abolitionists on principle.

At most, Lee believed that slavery eventually ending in God's good time, with man making no effort to speed up the process whatsoever was best.

Lee's views on slavery? That it was a painful but necessary education for a "lesser race" (not his term, but clearly his attitude).

And this is disregarding his actions because his letters are damning enough.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I think Turtledove got it right on this one: the only way Robert E. Lee would become an advocate of emancipation would be if time-traveling Afrikaners gave him a history book from the future that showed Lee what a hit his reputation would take for his supporting slavery.

Anything short of that probably wouldn't work.
 
I think that's giving him too much credit.

Especially given that any books from OTL - which admittedly isn't one with a timemachine for them to steal - are more likely to show him as Washington (2) than a filthy racist traitor (as in, the kind of Bad Reputation that supposedly would scare him like Scrooge).

And why would he care about the opinion of the late 20th century anyway?
 
Given that his army on the Gettysburg campaign, which you'd think would have had enough on its plate, took the time to round up free blacks "for further disposition" and Lee either approved of this or turned a blind eye to it, I think we have to say, much as we'd all like him to be against slavery in his secret heart of hearts, he wasn't.
 
Ignoring all the ASBs and the storyline of Guns of the South, I believe Turtledove did make one good point about Lee when it came time for him to decide to support abolitionism, which could translate to a standard AH timeline: If the Confederacy did win its independence anytime after the Union began allowing African-Americans to fight as soldiers.

Now, we all know that such would be simply next to impossible given the sheer strategic and economic advantages the Union possessed when it came to dealing with the Confederacy, but if someone could construct a timeline with the right sort of POD that might allow such a victory to occur post-Proclamation, then Lee -- who despite being a slaveholder and a very conservative man, was also a practical realist -- might consider putting his support towards an abolitionist movement in an independent South.

Note: I said "if!"
 
Lee's attitude to abolition was generally one of indifferance.

He didn't think slavery was a good thing but he thought it was a necessary evil for both the Southern economy and the slaves - that it was something that the slaves had to endure to become a better race of people - but he wouldn't be opposed to abolition if the nation called for it, nor if the situation required it - such as arming the slaves for the defence of the Confederacy in exchange for their freedom, which he supported in 1865 in OTL.

Joe Johnston was more of an abolitionist than Lee as he had never owned slaves, he was close friends with a slave when he was a boy, and he looked on the whole insitute of slavery with some distain but he believed it was a political issue, not a military one, and as he was a soldier it had nothing to do with him - which is why he refused to support Cleburne's proposal in 1864.

If I recall correctly though Thomas C. Hindman called for the arming of the slaves for the defences of the Confederacy in 1863. I find the idea of him being an Abolitionist in an independent Confederacy then dying the way he did in OTL rather interesting.
 
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Lee's attitude to abolition was generally one of indifferance.

He didn't think slavery was a good thing but he thought it was a necessary evil for both the Southern economy and the slaves - that it was something that the slaves had to endure to become a better race of people - but he wouldn't be opposed to abolition if the nation called for it, nor if the situation required it - such as arming the slaves for the defence of the Confederacy in exchange for their freedom, which he supported in 1865 in OTL.

Joe Johnston was more of an abolitionist than Lee as he had never owned slaves, he was close friends with a slave when he was a boy, and he looked on the whole insitute of slavery with some distain but he believed it was a political issue, not a military one, and as he was a soldier it had nothing to do with him - which is why he refused to support Cleburne's proposal in 1864.

If I recall correctly though Thomas C. Hindman called for the arming of the slaves for the defences of the Confederacy in 1863. I find the idea of him being an Abolitionist in an independent Confederacy then dying the way he did in OTL rather interesting.

Hindman was a fire-eater. He was one of Arkansas strongest and loudest supporters of slavery. How do you see him becoming an abolitionist if the idea of Lee, who was merely indifferent twoards slavery, becoming one is absurd?
 
Hindman was a fire-eater. He was one of Arkansas strongest and loudest supporters of slavery. How do you see him becoming an abolitionist if the idea of Lee, who was merely indifferent twoards slavery, becoming one is absurd?

I wasn't saying it would be realistic - though its not impossible that Hindman would have a change of heart in his later years - but it would be interesting to see how Hindman becoming abolitionist in an independent Confederacy and being shot dead would effect the nation.
 
I wasn't saying it would be realistic - though its not impossible that Hindman would have a change of heart in his later years - but it would be interesting to see how Hindman becoming abolitionist in an independent Confederacy and being shot dead would effect the nation.

So having Lee become an abolitionist isn't impossible, it's just unrealistic? As in a TL like that would belong in ASB rather that Pre-1900?
 
Can't speak for Nytram, but I'd say so. Or at least the Writer's forum.

Lee being an abolitionist would be a 180 on his position on the subject, even if one is able to somehow justify the idea that he's opposed to slavery despite the evidence to the contrary.
 
Can't speak for Nytram, but I'd say so. Or at least the Writer's forum.

Lee being an abolitionist would be a 180 on his position on the subject, even if one is able to somehow justify the idea that he's opposed to slavery despite the evidence to the contrary.

How about the argument that he is only human and humans are capable of change without really knowing the exact freudian excuse why?
 
How about the argument that he is only human and humans are capable of change without really knowing the exact freudian excuse why?

Screw Freud. You still need a reason for him to change a very deeply held set of beliefs.

"He woke up one morning and realized everything he believed was wrong." isn't really how humans tick.
 
Screw Freud. You still need a reason for him to change a very deeply held set of beliefs.

"He woke up one morning and realized everything he believed was wrong." isn't really how humans tick.

That's jumping to one extreme end of an argument. Ok, if that's apparently illegal, then how about seeing attrocities commited against blacks firsthand, or something really gruesome he bears witness to that changes his attitudes?
 
That's jumping to one extreme end of an argument. Ok, if that's apparently illegal, then how about seeing attrocities commited against blacks firsthand, or something really gruesome he bears witness to that changes his attitudes?

It is. I'm using it to point out it wouldn't be easy.

As for atrocities committed against blacks firsthand or something really gruesome: More so than OTL?

I mean, Lee was a slaveowner, and I'm not sure how much he knew about the Crater massacre (of course this is post-1862, but its a sign of what the real man would have known of/dealt with - and even if he didn't see it knew and did not protest Confederate policy towards the USCT, which is pretty stomach turning to most of us). You'd need something pretty serious.

And even there, there's a difference between horrified in a "I wouldn't even treat animals like that" way and "let's end slavery".

Let me put it this way before you get annoyed: I'm not convinced Lee would make the change. This does not mean I'm right.
 
It is. I'm using it to point out it wouldn't be easy.

As for atrocities committed against blacks firsthand or something really gruesome: More so than OTL?

I mean, Lee was a slaveowner, and I'm not sure how much he knew about the Crater massacre (of course this is post-1862, but its a sign of what the real man would have known of/dealt with - and even if he didn't see it knew and did not protest Confederate policy towards the USCT, which is pretty stomach turning to most of us). You'd need something pretty serious.

And even there, there's a difference between horrified in a "I wouldn't even treat animals like that" way and "let's end slavery".

Let me put it this way before you get annoyed: I'm not convinced Lee would make the change. This does not mean I'm right.

Granted. So, what short of throwing Lee into the middle of a black Auschwitz would be enough to convince him to become an abolitionist, or would even that just make him shrug and walk away?
 
Granted. So, what short of throwing Lee into the middle of a black Auschwitz would be enough to convince him to become an abolitionist, or would even that just make him shrug and walk away?

I think the problem is that Lee is not the kind of person who would - barring a very strong personality change as well as beliefs - become a radical reformer, and abolitionism is all about radical reform.

I don't think he'd be unaffected by a black Auschwitz or even lesser events, but there's a difference between regarding some particular horror as beyond the pale and regarding slavery as beyond the pale.

Lee is more likely to be the sort of guy who believes in "fair" treatment for slaves than the kind of guy who believes that's a contradiction in terms.

So the kind of POD you need is something where he isn't a conservative, not supportive of social reform minded sort of guy.

Its not "against" its "indifferent towards". That kind of mindset isn't how the OTL man viewed the world - the world as it was was fine, and any changes were in God's hands.
 
I think the problem is that Lee is not the kind of person who would - barring a very strong personality change as well as beliefs - become a radical reformer, and abolitionism is all about radical reform.

I don't think he'd be unaffected by a black Auschwitz or even lesser events, but there's a difference between regarding some particular horror as beyond the pale and regarding slavery as beyond the pale.

Lee is more likely to be the sort of guy who believes in "fair" treatment for slaves than the kind of guy who believes that's a contradiction in terms.

I'm not giving up here. There has to be something, some possible event that could do it. Ok, so he believed in the fair treatment of slaves. What if instead of having him go up against slavery, his attitudes twoard negroes change? you said he beleived in the fair treatment of slaves, and most slaves of that time were black. what if he instead was effected by an event that changed the way he saw black people, so that he recognized that they were humans too? blacks in the Confederacy and slaves are directly linked. if one is affected, so is the other. would something like that work?
 
I'm not giving up here. There has to be something, some possible event that could do it. Ok, so he believed in the fair treatment of slaves. What if instead of having him go up against slavery, his attitudes twoard negroes change? you said he beleived in the
fair treatment of slaves, and most slaves of that time were black.

And the comment on the fair treatment of slaves is meant to mean that Lee might believe in that but within the context of believing that slavery isn't inherently unfair - the kind of guy who probably also treats his dogs well.

Minor nitpick: Most?

what if he instead was effected by an event that changed the way he saw black people, so that he recognized that they were humans too? blacks in the Confederacy and slaves are directly linked. if one is affected, so is the other. would something like that work?

Theoretically.
 
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