RN loses BBs instead of CVs to summer 1942

Excluding lost CVEs, the RN lost five of their CVs during the Second World War

HMS Courageous - sunk Sept 1939
HMS Glorious - sunk Junk 1940
HMS Ark Royal - sunk Nov 1941
HMS Hermes - sunk April 1942
HMS Eagle - sunk Aug 1942

In ATL, let's have all five carriers survive the war, but the RN instead loses more BBs, matching the above dates. Matching the age and condition of the above carriers, I suggest losses would be a QE class and the four remaining Revenge class ships. Thus by Aug 1942, the RN has lost five Revenge class BBs and two QE class, seriously reducing the big gun capability of the RN.

With fewer big gun ships and five additional flat tops joining the four new Illustrious class, the RN by late 1941 now has nine carriers. Will we see a greater focus on air power in the RN? Do we see more carriers in the Indian Ocean?

Furious' hangar size and her use with higher performance aircraft later in the war (Martlet, Seafire, Hellcat, Barracuda, etc.) http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/ships/FURIOUS.html demonstrate how useful Glorious and Courageous would have been.

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I would suggest that losing 4 Rs would be a very good trade for the RN (as long as they didn't lose too many crew, especially by 42 the Rs are effectively already on there way to be retired)

I would also think that 1xQE 4xR doesn't really match 1xAR 2xC&G 2xsmall and old.

I would suggest 1x Nelson, 1x QE, 1x R&R and 2 Rs might match more closely ?

Thus by Aug 1942, the RN has lost five Revenge class BBs and two QE class, seriously reducing the big gun capability of the RN.
OTL the RN lost 1xR 1xQE 1x Hood 1xR&R 1xPoW by Aug 42 ?

so in your TL, 5xR, 2xQE, 1x H, 1x R&R, 1x PoW lost
RN would have 3x QE, 1x R&R, 2x N&R and 4x KVG = 10BBs
(in my suggestion 2xR, 3 QE, 1 N&R, 4x KVG same number but worse)

In the end it doesn't really matter as post 42 battleships (at least slow old ones) are really about to be retired and only useful for secondary duties such as bombardment. The CV (well at least the best 3 are actually useful and even the 2 old ones are more useful as aircraft transports)
 
If I may ask, how does the RN lose those BBs?

Courageous was lost on an anti-submarine patrol. Just choose whichever battleship you feel like to be in the wrong place instead. They can be on a patrol or just returning from a sortie somewhere.

Glorious was lost off Norway - you can have Renown being left behind as the rear guard for the fleet and blundering into the Twins in bad weather and taking a lucky shot to her guts that sinks her while Glorious, forwarned by Renown, manages to get away.

Have U-81 spot HMS Valiant rather than Ark Royal when she attacks Force H off Gib.

Hermes was sunk by Japanese bombers, replace her with one of the Revenge Class battleships of the Eastern Fleet at the time instead.

Have U-73 spot one of Rodney or Nelson rather than Eagle during Pedestal.


Some of those are harder to engineer than others but none are totally ASB and they save five carriers for the RN at the cost of five BBs.
 
Hermes and Eagle in exchange for two Rs is basically a wash. The Rs had been pretty well spent by the end of 1942 and were mostly in the Indian Ocean as a "Fleet in being." A deterrent force. Frankly the old carriers could accomplish as much and so what if the Russians don't get their hands on Royal Sovereign The only matter is that Ramilles will be missed for her fire support off Normandy. She's nice to have but I don't see the operation falling apart without her.

Ark Royal in exchange for a QE.... Would have to be Malaya The QEs took a lot of a beating in this time. Barham was destroyed at this time. Queen Elizabeth and Valiant were sunk in the shallows of Alexandria harbor and Warspite was in dock at Puget Sound. Malaya was on convoy escort duty at this time and stayed there until she paid off at the end of 1943. With the threat of German heavy raiders gone, (Bismarck, Blucher, and Graf Spee sunk. Gneisenau immobilized. And the other big ships in Norway) the battleship escort was less vital. I'd gladly have Ark Royal available instead of Malaya

Glorious and Courageous in exchange for two R types... This is a bad trade at this time. German surface raiders are a viable threat until June, 1941 and Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were; in fact, turned away from large convoys by battleship escort. Frankly if three Rs are lost in the first six months, (Royal Oak and two sisters) Chamberlain's government had better start begging and promising Chile the moon to let them buy back HMS Canada. Try to dust off Iron Duke and attempt to put her back together as a fighting ship, and beg, cajole bribe, and whatever it takes that the US might be willing to rebuild and sell the battleship Wyoming.. At this stage, the threat of Germany's surface raiders is very real.

If June '41 passes without serious setback beyond the historic, then the threat recedes. The British MIGHT spend less time dawdling over the Lions and then cancelling them. Lion MIGHT actually get built.
 
All in all I think the RN would be happy to have the carriers. Better striking power and extending the range to an offensive. Losing more R classes is even better in my opinion than a QE or later class.

Of course depending on when it happens, more men may be lost with the sinking of more battleships. I am not sure how that may play out with crewing later ships.
 
Hermes and Eagle in exchange for two Rs is basically a wash.
I can't agree. A carrier is valued by its ability to field competitive aircraft. Certainly Hermes and Eagle are limited in their top speed (about 24-25 knots) and the quantities of aircraft they can operate, but had they survived they would have likely have operated the FAA's top aircraft of the war (Martlet, Seafire, Corsair, Tarpon/Avenger and Barracuda). By 1942, when Hermes and Eagle were lost, the R class were in comparison nearly worthless.

HMS Eagle operated as many 21 aircraft, http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/ships/Eagle1.html This is without a crash barrier or deck parking. Add these two features and Eagle would have exceed 30 aircraft, IMO. Hermes carried only a dozen, but add a barrier and deck parking and I suggest she could carry several more. Give these two carriers with a fighter-heavy complement to Phillips and he could have put up a very useful CAP.
 
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Another thing that could have butterflies in this scenario would be if more carriers would be available to the Raid on Taranto. If more Italian battleships are sunk or damaged, then less of a threat to the RN in the Mediterranean. This could also make Mussolini more wary to confront convoys to Malta.
 
I can't agree. A carrier is valued by its ability to field competitive aircraft. Certainly Hermes and Eagle are limited in their top speed (about 24-25 knots) and the quantities of aircraft they can operate, but had they survived they would have likely have operated the FAA's top aircraft of the war (Martlet, Seafire, Corsair, Tarpon/Avenger and Barracuda). By 1942, when Hermes and Eagle were lost, the R class were in comparison nearly worthless.

HMS Eagle operated as many 21 aircraft, http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/ships/Eagle1.html This is without a crash barrier or deck parking. Add these two features and Eagle would have exceed 30 aircraft, IMO. Hermes carried only a dozen, but add a barrier and deck parking and I suggest she could carry several more. Give these two carriers with a fighter-heavy complement to Phillips and he could have put up a very useful CAP.

Except even assuming they are at their best speed, they are too slow. Remember that Hermes WAS in theater but not sent to rendezvous with Vian because his force was meant to be a fast combat force. And as the Taranto raid showed, Eagle wasn't the most mechanically sound carrier even in 1940. (She WAS originally assigned to the raid along WITH Illustrious but experienced mechanical failures and had to be scrubbed from the mission. Illustrious embarked a few of Eagle's Swordfish and proceeded. In 1942, when these two go down, Force Z is already history so they obviously did not make a difference. Either aging carriers with low speed and small air groups (Perhaps the means of increasing the group might have worked but doctrine says the British did not do things that way. Everything here must consider doctrine as it existed at the time.) or worn out R type battleships are not really going to make a major impact from 1943 on at all.

More credence holds for the faster Courageous and Glorious. Glorious would have been an excellent choice to accompany Illustrious on the Taranto raid since the original plans for the raid were drawn up for and aboard Glorious in 1935 but you'll not likely get more than one carrier joining Illustrious for the raid as there are never enough ships for anything and frankly an organized multi-carrier strike force was something the Japanese trained at before Pearl Harbor but no one else had. The Americans and British at this time simply did not do things that way yet. BUT Glorious would certainly have been the right ship for the job. Courageous could adequately fill in if Glorious was not available. The only thing is that when they went down, the German surface fleet was still a threat to the Atlantic convoys. Until June 1941, those old Rs are desperately needed to escort the Atlantic convoys. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau turning away from large, vital convoys because of them.

Ark Royal is the ONE case of the five where the carrier was clearly the greater loss At the time she was lost
 
If these battleships are lost over the carriers, would Britain try to build more battleships to make up the losses or stay focused on carriers and escorts?
 
If these battleships are lost over the carriers, would Britain try to build more battleships to make up the losses or stay focused on carriers and escorts?

Carriers are still the priority but perhaps the Admiralty decides to shoot the engineers and get to building at least Lion. Again, I see an attempt to purchase the battleship Canada back from Chile. She's equal to an R. The Admirals actually give a considered thought to turning Iron Duke back into a warship. (In truth the Iron Dukes are not much worse than the R types.)
 
More credence holds for the faster Courageous and Glorious. Glorious would have been an excellent choice to accompany Illustrious on the Taranto raid since the original plans for the raid were drawn up for and aboard Glorious in 1935 but you'll not likely get more than one carrier joining Illustrious for the raid as there are never enough ships for anything and frankly an organized multi-carrier strike force was something the Japanese trained at before Pearl Harbor but no one else had. The Americans and British at this time simply did not do things that way yet. BUT Glorious would certainly have been the right ship for the job. Courageous could adequately fill in if Glorious was not available. The only thing is that when they went down, the German surface fleet was still a threat to the Atlantic convoys. Until June 1941, those old Rs are desperately needed to escort the Atlantic convoys. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau turning away from large, vital convoys because of them.

Second that. I have had an idea for a thread called The Consequences Of A Dud Torpedo in which one of the torpedoes that Courageous was a dud so that she was damaged rather than sunk. The dud torpedo was one of those which U-56 which was fired at Nelson on 30 October 1939 ITTL. This does mean that the torpedo instead hits the Nelson, but she has much better anti-torpedo protection and might be repaired in time to be put out of action by the mine she struck in December 1939 IOTL.

The result was that she was out of action until the end of May 1940. This was that she could be assigned to Operation Alphabet with Glorious. She would not have taken any RAF aircraft aboard and so would be able to fly off Swordfish for ASW patrols. One of these spots The Twins when the British ships still have time to take evasive action. Or the captain of the Glorious isn't given permission to proceed to Scapa Flow independently so Glorious doesn't encounter The Twins in the first place.

However, I'm not sure if much use could be made of these ships because AFAIK the Royal Navy didn't have enough aircraft and aircrew to operate the aircraft carriers they did have with full strength air groups.

I think the best that could be done in the short term is for Glorious to go to the Mediterranean to relieve Eagle and take Eagle's air group aboard. Similarly Courageous goes to the Indian Ocean to relieve Hermes and takes aboard her air group. Eagle and Hermes are then operated as training carriers and aircraft transports until there are enough trained aircrew for them to return to front-line duties.

IIRC Illustrious and Eagle had 18 Swordfish each before Taranto and 6 of the latter's were transferred to the former and took part in the raid. Therefore ITTL Illustrious and Glorious attack Taranto with 36 Swordfish and theoretically do 50% more damage to the Italian fleet.
 
Carriers are still the priority but perhaps the Admiralty decides to shoot the engineers and get to building at least Lion.
I'd start by expediting Anson and Howe, both which by 1942 have been sitting at the builders since summer 1937 (the first three KGV class were completed one year faster). Vanguard was laid down in Oct 1941, so she would likely have priority and completed something in 1944. I do not think we'll see any Tiger class.

With Glorious, Ark and Courageous providing three additional large fleet carriers, do we still see a push for the slow CVLs? The first Colossus class CVL was laid down in June 1942? Perhaps instead we see production focus on the Audacious class (laid down in Oct 1942, OTL) as replacements for the three Outrageous class as they wear out from heavy use?

If all three Audacious are built the post-war RN could cancel the postponed Colossus/Majestic/Centaur CVLs, scrap Ark Royal, Hermes, Eagle, Argus and the three Outrageous and five Illustrious/Implacable. Perhaps keep the latest Illustrious/Implacable as commando carriers, but I'd rather see more Intrepid or other amphibious types.

With three Audacious class, the RN can guarantee to have one jet capable CVF on service at all times, ideal for the UK's postwar ops and scale. For example, an Audacious class in Korea could operate Hawker P.1052 where they'd be competitive against MiG-15.

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