Rio de Janeiro falls to the French during the Seven Years War

In October 1762, after several French defeats in North America and India during the Seven Year Wars, Louis XV accepted a plan from his ministers to invade the Portuguese colony of Rio de Janeiro. By then, Rio was the port from where all the gold from Brazil was being sent to Portugal (and from there to Britain, as Portuguese were buying almost all their manufactured products from the British). The idea of Louis XV was to score a last huge victory, conquering an important colonial territory that could give him a trump in the peace negotiations, or by recognizing his conquest or by trading it for other lost French territories.

The plans included to send a fleet formed by 22 ship (ten of them from the Royal Navy, other ten would be bought in Brest and two in Nantes). The commander of the fleet would be in charge of Beaussier de l’Isle. He would send to Rio 5150 soldiers, commanded by the Count D’Estaing, who would be nominated the French “Vice-King” in Brazil.

The French were well prepared they had several maps of Rio made by D’Estaing (who had been there in 1757), and the Portuguese couldn’t offer resistance, as the governor of Gomes Freire de Andrade was in South Brazil with the main part of his troops in order to fight the Spanish invasion of Rio Grande do Sul. Probably, if they French had really invaded Rio, they would have conquered it.

However, the French were not able to create the fleet, and exhausted by the war they signed the peace only four months after the approval of the plan. But, if we give them some POD that can allow the war to last longer without changing too much the outcome of it (BTW, which kind of POD could create this situation), and they conquer Rio before the peace, what would happen? Would they receive it? If they decide to exchange it for other territory, what could they gain? Could the British decide to destroy this trump, by invading Rio too in order to expel the French and avoid their control of the Brazilian gold? And what could they ask from the Portuguese in return for this “favour”?
 
In October 1762, after several French defeats in North America and India during the Seven Year Wars, Louis XV accepted a plan from his ministers to invade the Portuguese colony of Rio de Janeiro. By then, Rio was the port from where all the gold from Brazil was being sent to Portugal (and from there to Britain, as Portuguese were buying almost all their manufactured products from the British). The idea of Louis XV was to score a last huge victory, conquering an important colonial territory that could give him a trump in the peace negotiations, or by recognizing his conquest or by trading it for other lost French territories.

The plans included to send a fleet formed by 22 ship (ten of them from the Royal Navy, other ten would be bought in Brest and two in Nantes). The commander of the fleet would be in charge of Beaussier de l’Isle. He would send to Rio 5150 soldiers, commanded by the Count D’Estaing, who would be nominated the French “Vice-King” in Brazil.

The French were well prepared they had several maps of Rio made by D’Estaing (who had been there in 1757), and the Portuguese couldn’t offer resistance, as the governor of Gomes Freire de Andrade was in South Brazil with the main part of his troops in order to fight the Spanish invasion of Rio Grande do Sul. Probably, if they French had really invaded Rio, they would have conquered it.

However, the French were not able to create the fleet, and exhausted by the war they signed the peace only four months after the approval of the plan. But, if we give them some POD that can allow the war to last longer without changing too much the outcome of it (BTW, which kind of POD could create this situation), and they conquer Rio before the peace, what would happen? Would they receive it? If they decide to exchange it for other territory, what could they gain? Could the British decide to destroy this trump, by invading Rio too in order to expel the French and avoid their control of the Brazilian gold? And what could they ask from the Portuguese in return for this “favour”?

Intrsting WI!

I don´t thok, however, they'll be able to keep it. If they still loose the seven years' war, they'll have to give it back. If they win, they won't be able to defend it, so they'll probably exchange it for something. And it's not like the Portuguese are going to send the gold from Minas to Portugal via Rio if Rio is French anyway.

What can they get in exchange? Mmha.. maybe Goa, if they still have colonies in India? Or some islands near Africa? Or East Timor? Or Macao, if Protugal had back them? Or maybe they could have added more territory to French Guyanne...
 
Hmm, very interesting. Of course, that still begs the question: would the French still abandon New France?
 
Intrsting WI!

I don´t thok, however, they'll be able to keep it. If they still loose the seven years' war, they'll have to give it back. If they win, they won't be able to defend it, so they'll probably exchange it for something. And it's not like the Portuguese are going to send the gold from Minas to Portugal via Rio if Rio is French anyway.

What can they get in exchange? Mmha.. maybe Goa, if they still have colonies in India? Or some islands near Africa? Or East Timor? Or Macao, if Protugal had back them? Or maybe they could have added more territory to French Guyanne...

Of course, the Portuguese would start to send the gold to other ports, but if the French have Rio they would be in a good position to attack any port nearby.
I think the exchanges would depend on the reaction to the attack. More territory to French Guiana could be an option. Also, I wonder if the Portuguese doing worse in South America wouldn't have consequences in the Plata region (as Spain was a French ally). Maybe ITTL the colony of Sacramento isn't given back to Portugal?
 
From a real amateur in mid 18th century history, i would say that Britain might well not want anything in exchange for driving the French out of Rio, and, at the very least, Goa. Moreover, if the French hold it, but are still defeated, they might want Goa as well, especially since, in Bourbon France, well, according to Simon Schama in Citizens, important fortunes were being made by up and coming aristo's in India; acquiring Goa would make sense that way. Or, given Pitt's inclination to go for a harsh peace, or at least one that would net the most French territory, the French might gain nothing out of this and just expend a lot of lives for nothing.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about the British asking territories from the Portuguese in exchange for expelling the French from Rio (it would be too harsh againt an ally of them). Probably the most interesting option would be give permission to British merchants to make business directly with Brazil, buying the gold in Rio rather than in Lisbon, and acquiring other goods for cheaper prices.
 
In all honesty I don't think they'd want to trade it back for New France and the rest of French Canada; at the time the provinces weren't massively valueable and had to be constantly defended against the Brits. This is shown by the fact that the French were offered Quebec back at the end of the ARW and instead wanted small Caribbean consesions.

On the other hand they'd more than be willing to trade it back for the Carnatica, but I'd imagine the Brits might have issues with that. The portugese would be unwilling to give it up and the Brits wouldn't want to conceed anywhere so the knock out blow could ironicaly continue the war.
 
In all honesty I don't think they'd want to trade it back for New France and the rest of French Canada; at the time the provinces weren't massively valueable and had to be constantly defended against the Brits. This is shown by the fact that the French were offered Quebec back at the end of the ARW and instead wanted small Caribbean consesions.

I believe you, but any sources? I never really get any sources everytime I hear this tidbit...
 
Ah, i didnt know that :eek:

So favoured nation status?

Probably, and that would have interesting effects in Brazil, as it would create during the 1760's economical conditions similar to those started IOTL in 1808 (end of Lisbon's monopoly and openning the commerce with other nations).

On the other hand they'd more than be willing to trade it back for the Carnatica, but I'd imagine the Brits might have issues with that. The portugese would be unwilling to give it up and the Brits wouldn't want to conceed anywhere so the knock out blow could ironicaly continue the war.

So, the war goes longer, the French economy suffers even more, and their military force after the conflict become weaker... Could it lead to a more isolationist France in the future?
 
So, the war goes longer, the French economy suffers even more, and their military force after the conflict become weaker... Could it lead to a more isolationist France in the future?

Or an earlier Revolutionairy one, in all honesty I think the French would settle for nothing less than the Carnatica back
 
Or an earlier Revolutionairy one, in all honesty I think the French would settle for nothing less than the Carnatica back

What about a deal with the Portuguese, exchanging Rio for Goa? Carnatica still is British, but the French secure other possession in India.
 
Probably, and that would have interesting effects in Brazil, as it would create during the 1760's economical conditions similar to those started IOTL in 1808 (end of Lisbon's monopoly and openning the commerce with other nations).

Okay, that would be interesting. My understanding is 1808 onward was a bit of a boom time, no?
 
What about a deal with the Portuguese, exchanging Rio for Goa? Carnatica still is British, but the French secure other possession in India.

I'd imagine that the whole of the Carnatica with its material wealth would be more valueable than just one trading port, and rember many of these commodities were starting to play a massive role in the emerging world economy. But I think if the French were desperate it could be done, however they'd be fairly limited in terms of expansion and it'll still be a British dominated sub continent
 
Okay, that would be interesting. My understanding is 1808 onward was a bit of a boom time, no?

More or less. At the same time that if filled the pockets of the merchants who now could make better deals than the ones they used to get from Lisbon, the "Opening of the Ports" in 1808 alse filled Brazil's market with cheap industrialized British goods, making any Brazilian industry impossible to be created or go bankrupted as they couldn't compete with the imported goods. It created a huge debt that was only worsened by independence. Of course, the conditions in the 1760's would be very different, but still there would be similarities.
 
Gonzaga, do you have information on the extent of the territory the French planned to conquer?

By the way, I imagine that you got the idea for this AH from the October issue of the Revista de História da Biblioteca Nacional :)
 
Gonzaga

If they went for the plan I think the 1st big question would be could they succeed. They lost heavily in two crushing defeats in 1759 and since then most of their fleet has been blockaged. This means very little ability for the ships to practice and hence generally problems in sailing let alone combat. Especially since a lot of the crew were pressed peasants. Also I'm presuming from the description you give that there are only 10 warships [possibly not all SOL] and the rest are pressed merchantmen to carry the troops.

Admittedly the RN has dispersed a number of its ships, with the forces sent to Havana and Manlia but suspect there's a good chance that the force, if it sets sail, get scattered/sunk in fairly short order.

Even if it hasn't I doubt if Britain would be happy leaving the French in command of Rio so Britain could simply send another task force. Can't remember exactly when Pitt's resigned, just checked Wiki and it was Oct 61 so he wouldn't be about. However the British forces have gained a lot of experience in recent years so shouldn't be too difficult. [If the French are really, really unfortunately their forces get through and capture Rio and the resultant scandal forces the king to recall Pitt. If he's still in charge at the peace then it could be a lot harsher. Britain gave a hell of a lot back OTL that it didn't need to

There is the possibility that something might go badly wrong for Britain. Or it makes a serious mistake and decides to sacrifice Portugese interests. However I think that if somehow the French manage to get the mission organised and capture Rio its most likely going to backfire on them.

Steve
 
Gonzaga, do you have information on the extent of the territory the French planned to conquer?

No, I don't, but it seems that never planned so far as conquering more than Rio only.
By the way, I imagine that you got the idea for this AH from the October issue of the Revista de História da Biblioteca Nacional :)

You can bet on it!;)
This magazine from the National Library is probably the best publication about History we have.

BTW, other Brazilian on AH.COM! Where do you guys hide yourselves?:p


Gonzaga

If they went for the plan I think the 1st big question would be could they succeed. They lost heavily in two crushing defeats in 1759 and since then most of their fleet has been blockaged. This means very little ability for the ships to practice and hence generally problems in sailing let alone combat. Especially since a lot of the crew were pressed peasants. Also I'm presuming from the description you give that there are only 10 warships [possibly not all SOL] and the rest are pressed merchantmen to carry the troops.

Admittedly the RN has dispersed a number of its ships, with the forces sent to Havana and Manlia but suspect there's a good chance that the force, if it sets sail, get scattered/sunk in fairly short order.

Even if it hasn't I doubt if Britain would be happy leaving the French in command of Rio so Britain could simply send another task force. Can't remember exactly when Pitt's resigned, just checked Wiki and it was Oct 61 so he wouldn't be about. However the British forces have gained a lot of experience in recent years so shouldn't be too difficult. [If the French are really, really unfortunately their forces get through and capture Rio and the resultant scandal forces the king to recall Pitt. If he's still in charge at the peace then it could be a lot harsher. Britain gave a hell of a lot back OTL that it didn't need to

There is the possibility that something might go badly wrong for Britain. Or it makes a serious mistake and decides to sacrifice Portugese interests. However I think that if somehow the French manage to get the mission organised and capture Rio its most likely going to backfire on them.

Steve

I agree that the outcome probably wouldn't be good for the French. They probably realised this too at the time, and that was the reason why the whole plan didn't word. As I said, it was a kind of a measure of desperation from them. However, it still could have some interesting consequences if done: an even more beaten France, Britain trying to get advantages from the Portuguese for defending their colony, Pitt being recalled...
 
No, I don't, but it seems that never planned so far as conquering more than Rio only.

From the article I got the impression that it would be a springboard for the conquest of a larger territory, specially since d'Estaing was supposed to become viceroy according to it.

You can bet on it!;)
This magazine from the National Library is probably the best publication about History we have.

BTW, other Brazilian on AH.COM! Where do you guys hide yourselves?:p

Indeed it is :) I only wish we had a magazine of this quality that also had articles on foreign history.

I visit AH.com sporadically, but I came to this post when searching in google about the French planned expedition, after having read the article in the magazine and wanting to learn more :p
 
From the article I got the impression that it would be a springboard for the conquest of a larger territory, specially since d'Estaing was supposed to become viceroy according to it.

Sure, but it also suggests that Louis XV wanted Rio as a trump in order to get compensations during the peace treaty. Probably they didn't even have a clear idea of what to do with the territory, the French only realised that it would be an easy prey and were looking for a victory after so many defeats.
 
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