"Righteous Kill" – the story of Israeli special forces operators who travel through time to ambush the Führer's personal train

[Righteous Kill]

October 1940: A raiding party of elite soldiers arrives in the middle of Nazi-occupied France on a deadly mission.

SNIP

 

[Resurgam]

Besides realizing they could very well be negating their own country's existence, you mean?

 

[Alanith]

So of all the things they could do with time travel, their plan is... to assassinate Hitler after he's already started the second world war. Wow. Way to be a team player Israel.

Also: Kill everyone on board

Good to know we'll be machine gunning innocent secretaries and train personnel. Way to make yourself into the good guy.

 

[MrHaakwood]

Sounds awful. I mean timetravel is idiotic to begin with. But not even this, why 1940 why not in the 20ies? Kristallnacht already happened, Jews already being killed en mass, but hey Wehrmacht against IDF is probably cooler than Mossad gainst Saalschutz. Meh....

 

[Worffan101]

Better to assassinate Hitler in 1932/33, before he can consolidate power. Better get Himmler, too.

Slaughtering all the guys on Hitler's train in 1940 isn't actually going to do much good, especially if they miss Himmler.

 

[Righteous Kill]

Besides realizing they could very well be negating their own country's existence, you mean?

Hi all:

Hi all. In response to your comments I will say:

1) Resurgam - the timing of the ambush on the Führer's train – October 1940 – is carefully selected to forestall the most destructive portion of WWII - Barbarossa and the Shoah - while avoiding radical change that would leave the world utterly unrecognisable. It's a balancing act between change and continuity. How? But you'll just have to read it to find out!

2) Alanith - The issue of non-combatants travelling on 'Amerika' (the codename for Hitler's personal train) is factored in to the operational plan. Law of war questions and combat ethics are fully taken into account. But you'll just have to read it to find out how!

3) Haakwood - sorry to see that you've jumped to such an a priori conclusion. See responses 1) and 4).

4) Worfan - Who says that Himmler doesn't get schwacked as well? Himmler, Göring, Goebbels and Keitel are all onboard Hitler's train when it's ambushed by these Sayeret Matkal operators. They all receive their just deserts. In essence, it's a decapitation strike against the leadership of the Third Reich. So then what? The Wehrmacht takes over in Berlin instituting a traditional conservative Junkerish government. The SS/SA are outlawed, Heydrich and the rest of the SS command are shot and Nazi racial ideology is abandoned. This means no Barbarossa and no Shoah. WWII in the west is stalemated and a peace with Britain is signed in 1946.

But enough spoilers, except to mention the 40 Israeli special operators who end up marooned in German-occupied France of 1940 with their 21st century weapons, comms and a min-UAV. What do they do? You'll just have to pick up a copy of the book and find out!

 

[Worffan101]

1) Resurgam - the timing of the ambush on the Führer's train – October 1940 – is carefully selected to forestall the most destructive portion of WWII - Barbarossa and the Shoah - while avoiding radical change that would leave the world utterly unrecognisable. It's a balancing act between change and continuity. How? But you'll just have to read it to find out!

This is absurd, because any divergence, especially in such a tumultuous era, would inevitably result in massive change down the line--indeed, you yourself essentially admit this two paragraphs later:

4) Worfan - Who says that Himmler doesn't get schwacked as well? Himmler, Göring, Goebbels and Keitel are all onboard Hitler's train when it's ambushed by these Sayeret Matkal operators. They all receive their just deserts. In essence, it's a decapitation strike against the leadership of the Third Reich. So then what? The Wehrmacht takes over in Berlin instituting a traditional conservative Junkerish government. The SS/SA are outlawed, Heydrich and the rest of the SS command are shot and Nazi racial ideology is abandoned. This means no Barbarossa and no Shoah. WWII in the west is stalemated and a peace with Britain is signed in 1946.

This is...questionable? At best? It's going to be pretty hard to keep control of France long-term, and the world just saw a bunch of heavily armed Jews assassinate the rabidly antisemitic leader of a major world power (because, let's be realistic here, I don't actually need to read the book to know that the IDF guys are going to machine-gun every Nazi they see and blow the hell out of Hitler's train, because that's what's going to happen in a book like this). That's quite likely to backfire spectacularly--leaving aside that by this point the Wehrmacht high command was dominated by racist, far-right assholes, and that a large part of Heydrich's job was state security. At this point, Heydrich was personally in charge of disappearing people who the Nazi regime found troublesome (Night and Fog decree), and two years later he would be put in charge of ensuring that the various insane agencies of the Nazi state were brought onto the same page vis a vis the death camps. There is absolutely no way that he doesn't have a private stockpile of information--maybe not as big as the one Beria had available for use in the USSR, but still one of respectable size--to blackmail and threaten anyone he doesn't just have vanished with.

And even if a cabal of Wehrmacht higher-ups is able to muster up the unity and political will to take over before Heydrich has them and their families abducted or killed, even if they don't murder a shitload of Jews in revenge for their Dear Leader, even if they somehow abandon their pre-existing antisemitism and racism (high-ranking officers who weren't racists, crypto-fascists, or willing to go along with the fascist current as long as they could be war heroes had already been purged--see von Hammerstein-Equord), without Barbarossa and the Eastern Front, Europe looks completely different and the entire post-WW2 history of the planet is drastically altered. Keep in mind, Pearl Harbor hasn't happened. There's a good chance Israel never exists, removing the single largest nexus of political strife in the Middle East. Harry Truman is probably never going to be President.

 

[Righteous Kill]

This is absurd, because any divergence, especially in such a tumultuous era, would inevitably result in massive change down the line--indeed, you yourself essentially admit this two paragraphs later:

This is...questionable? At best? It's going to be pretty hard to keep control of France long-term, and the world just saw a bunch of heavily armed Jews assassinate the rabidly antisemitic leader of a major world power (because, let's be realistic here, I don't actually need to read the book to know that the IDF guys are going to machine-gun every Nazi they see and blow the hell out of Hitler's train, because that's what's going to happen in a book like this). That's quite likely to backfire spectacularly--leaving aside that by this point the Wehrmacht high command was dominated by racist, far-right assholes, and that a large part of Heydrich's job was state security. At this point, Heydrich was personally in charge of disappearing people who the Nazi regime found troublesome (Night and Fog decree), and two years later he would be put in charge of ensuring that the various insane agencies of the Nazi state were brought onto the same page vis a vis the death camps. There is absolutely no way that he doesn't have a private stockpile of information--maybe not as big as the one Beria had available for use in the USSR, but still one of respectable size--to blackmail and threaten anyone he doesn't just have vanished with.

And even if a cabal of Wehrmacht higher-ups is able to muster up the unity and political will to take over before Heydrich has them and their families abducted or killed, even if they don't murder a shitload of Jews in revenge for their Dear Leader, even if they somehow abandon their pre-existing antisemitism and racism (high-ranking officers who weren't racists, crypto-fascists, or willing to go along with the fascist current as long as they could be war heroes had already been purged--see von Hammerstein-Equord), without Barbarossa and the Eastern Front, Europe looks completely different and the entire post-WW2 history of the planet is drastically altered. Keep in mind, Pearl Harbor hasn't happened. There's a good chance Israel never exists, removing the single largest nexus of political strife in the Middle East. Harry Truman is probably never going to be President.

You're jumping to all sorts of a priori conclusions that have nothing to do with the plot of the book. Of course there is a divergence, but not so much of one as to render the world unrecognisable. Germany becomes a conventional military dictatorship shorn of Nazi racial ideology. It's not the the Junkers had any fondness for the Jews. Far from it. But there's a vast difference between 'conventional' European anti-Semitism and the genocidal Nazi variety.

And as for Heydrich, one particularly bright spark at OKW comes up with the idea of blaming the train attack on the SS. This serves as an excuse to outlaw the SS and SA and put Heydrich and the senior SS leadership up against a wall. The rank and file are either booted on to the street or absorbed into the Wehrmacht.

And as for the raiders, the Germans initially assume that they're these newfangled British commandos. A bit later they come to the conclusion they are Palestinian Jews serving in the British army. But most of the Wehrmacht generals aren't too broken up about Hitler's demise. The Junkers among them tended to view the Nazis with a measure of social contempt, seeing them as jumped up commoners and wild-eyed fanatics. So not too many tears are being shed at OKW, although the appearance of public grief is of course maintained.

So in conclusion (don't want to include too many spoilers) the Junker military junta now ruling Germany is more interested in consolidating the gains of 1940 than emulating Napoleon in an invasion of the USSR. Again, the ideological imperative is gone. America fights a Pacific-only war against the Japanese and the war in Europe becomes stalemated, with a cold peace signed in the mid 1940s.

I've tried to keep this exchange civil, despite your intemperate and insulting language. And on most of your points you aren't even in the right forest, much less barking up the right tree. But if indeed the hammer & sickle on your bio is meant in anything other than jest, there's really not a lot of point to continued back & forth. This book is unapologetically Zionist and contains politically conservative themes. If you don't want to buy it, fine with me. I wouldn't dream of encouraging you to engage in such crass capitalist behaviour as actually engaging in a commercial transaction.

 

[Resurgam]

Hello @Righteous Kill ,

Allow me to engage some of your points in a less hostile manner.

Of course there is a divergence, but not so much of one as to render the world unrecognisable.

The problem is... the world IS going to be unrecognizable in this situation. You're preventing Barbarossa. Millions of Soviets, Germans, Poles, and others in central and eastern Europe that were supposed to die are now alive. This means millions of people who should or shouldn't have been born now have their existences switched. The Soviet Union might be tempted to advance eastward after a few years due to the chaos in Germany. The EU and other pan-European concepts postwar probably won't happen. And Israel itself may not exist without the impetus of the Holocaust. I don't deny that some kind of Jewish state may eventually take form, but it won't be the one these IDF soldiers left. As I said earlier - their achievement could be erasing their nation, and themselves, from history.

Germany becomes a conventional military dictatorship shorn of Nazi racial ideology. It's not the the Junkers had any fondness for the Jews. Far from it. But there's a vast difference between 'conventional' European anti-Semitism and the genocidal Nazi variety.

Most definitely. But I think you're ignoring just how far National Socialism had permeated Germany by 1940. Sure, the Junkers had no love for the regime but at this point Germany was on a high upswing. The defeat of France gave the regime a huge boost of support and popularity - including from the Prussian and Junkers classes. In 1944, they were also divided by the 20 July attempt on Hitler's life... the idea of an outside force gunning down the leader of the country will be no different.

And as for Heydrich, one particularly bright spark at OKW comes up with the idea of blaming the train attack on the SS. This serves as an excuse to outlaw the SS and SA and put Heydrich and the senior SS leadership up against a wall. The rank and file are either booted on to the street or absorbed into the Wehrmacht.

Er... why? On what evidence? And why is the SS quietly going to the slaughter? By 1940 the SS was becoming the state within a state - and had many members, members that were well-armed and highly indoctrinated. You might have Heydrich and higher-ups in Berlin rounded up and shot, but the SS and SA being outlawed and their going along with it, especially after a decapitation strike? That's... just not going to happen. A civil war is likely.

Also, putting all these angry indoctrinated people into the Wehrmacht is... not wise.

And as for the raiders, the Germans initially assume that they're these newfangled British commandos. A bit later they come to the conclusion they are Palestinian Jews serving in the British army.

How? Why? If there's no survivors, how do they reach any conclusions? Do they manage to leave no traces? Is there no hint these attackers are from decades in the future?

But most of the Wehrmacht generals aren't too broken up about Hitler's demise. The Junkers among them tended to view the Nazis with a measure of social contempt, seeing them as jumped up commoners and wild-eyed fanatics. So not too many tears are being shed at OKW, although the appearance of public grief is of course maintained.

As I said earlier, the higher-ranks of the OKW and the various branches of the armed forces were heavily nazified, nationalist first, or hopelessly torn about what to do. They're not going to be happy the head of state just got killed - especially those who are fully fledged National Socialists.

So in conclusion (don't want to include too many spoilers) the Junker military junta now ruling Germany is more interested in consolidating the gains of 1940 than emulating Napoleon in an invasion of the USSR. Again, the ideological imperative is gone.

Except these groups are also heavily indoctrinated in a hatred of communism and the Slavs. And, as I've pointed out, also nazified in beliefs and actions. The ideological imperative may have changed or lessened, but it's definitely still there.

America fights a Pacific-only war against the Japanese and the war in Europe becomes stalemated, with a cold peace signed in the mid 1940s.

America is probably going to be involved eventually in Europe if the war drags on. Also, if there's no eastern front at all it's likely Britain or Germany is going to try to force the issue at some point before 1946. Either we'll see an increased bombing campaign or an attempted landing.

This book is unapologetically Zionist and contains politically conservative themes.

I think this is where the issue is. You've decided on a story, and how it's going to go. That's fine. But this website is big on plausibility and research (even for more fantastical scenarios), and if this is more about ideology and revenge fantasy (as you've suggested), then so be it. Unfortunately, it's probably not going to get a good reception here.

Apologies for the unsatisfactory reception.

-Resurgam

 

[Worffan101]

You're jumping to all sorts of a priori conclusions that have nothing to do with the plot of the book. Of course there is a divergence, but not so much of one as to render the world unrecognisable. Germany becomes a conventional military dictatorship shorn of Nazi racial ideology. It's not the the Junkers had any fondness for the Jews. Far from it. But there's a vast difference between 'conventional' European anti-Semitism and the genocidal Nazi variety.

Apparently not all that much considering how many of those Junkers were happy to go along with war crimes galore on the Eastern front. Including helping the Einsantzgruppen with mass-murdering Jews.

And as for Heydrich, one particularly bright spark at OKW comes up with the idea of blaming the train attack on the SS. This serves as an excuse to outlaw the SS and SA and put Heydrich and the senior SS leadership up against a wall. The rank and file are either booted on to the street or absorbed into the Wehrmacht.

Why would OKW blame the attack on the SS? They were Hitler's lickspittles by this point, and as I noted loaded with insane racists and general scumbags by this point. Who the Hell would actually believe that? This is after the fall of France, Germany is in the midst of war fever and has never been and never will be more united around Hitler, who looks like a genius because his crazy plan actually worked for a change.

More likely, a guy arguably even scarier than Hitler (namely Heydrich) would take over, he'd engage in some mass murder against Jews while using them as a scapegoat to whip up war fever, and things could potentially end up even worse.

And as for the raiders, the Germans initially assume that they're these newfangled British commandos. A bit later they come to the conclusion they are Palestinian Jews serving in the British army. But most of the Wehrmacht generals aren't too broken up about Hitler's demise. The Junkers among them tended to view the Nazis with a measure of social contempt, seeing them as jumped up commoners and wild-eyed fanatics. So not too many tears are being shed at OKW, although the appearance of public grief is of course maintained.

Why would assume that these people are Palestinian Mizrahim serving the British? That contains several leaps in logic that Nazis wouldn't be likely to make. More likely they'd blame a domestic Jewish insurgency, which people would buy because (again) this is 1940, not 1945 or 1934, and Hitler looks like a Man of Destiny who took down the national enemy in about a month. The German populace is high on war fever and is more amenable than usual to Hitler's insane ideas, dramatically killing him at this juncture, while certainly cathartic and deserved, would be pretty much doomed to backfire.

Better to ice him before Kristallnacht. Or better yet in '32, pin it on one of his minions and make it look like an internal power struggle, then watch the Nazis tear each other apart until they're irrelevant.

So in conclusion (don't want to include too many spoilers) the Junker military junta now ruling Germany is more interested in consolidating the gains of 1940 than emulating Napoleon in an invasion of the USSR. Again, the ideological imperative is gone. America fights a Pacific-only war against the Japanese and the war in Europe becomes stalemated, with a cold peace signed in the mid 1940s.

This is pretty ridiculous because Germany is still occupying most of France. So they'd better give most of it back, except that all that will do is cause another world war 5-10 years down the line, this time with nukes.

I've tried to keep this exchange civil, despite your intemperate and insulting language. And on most of your points you aren't even in the right forest, much less barking up the right tree. But if indeed the hammer & sickle on your bio is meant in anything other than jest, there's really not a lot of point to continued back & forth. This book is unapologetically Zionist and contains politically conservative themes. If you don't want to buy it, fine with me. I wouldn't dream of encouraging you to engage in such crass capitalist behaviour as actually engaging in a commercial transaction.

Please, point to one thing I said that's insulting. If anything, it's you, sir, who are being insulting and patronizing.

 

[Worffan101]

As I said earlier - their achievement could be erasing their nation, and themselves, from history.

This is actually a really cool concept and would make for a great philosophical plotline and driver of internal tension and conflict. It's just that killing Hitler in 1940 won't solve anything.

 

[Resurgam]

It's just that killing Hitler in 1940 won't solve anything.

Actually, now that I think of it, this would probably cause a pogrom in and of itself - the Fuhrer?! Killed by a Jewish conspiracy!?

 

[Worffan101]

Actually, now that I think of it, this would probably cause a pogrom in and of itself - the Fuhrer?! Killed by a Jewish conspiracy!?

Yeah, that was my immediate thought. "Congratulations, you just gave Heydrich the perfect genocidal angle to use to cling to power". And the idea of him in charge of anything...jesus. It'd be like 1984 except with Nazis.

 

[White Aurora]

Let me start by saying that, a time trip is already stretching plausibility.
I ignored this for the rest of my viewing of the book's plot.
Let's look at the personal cost: They are eliminating their families, love ones, friends, & their entire country from reality (by creating a new reality where Hitler died in 1940), and who's to say that with Hitler gone, some new villain might not take power somewhere, somehow in this new reality? it could be in the span of a few short months, with Heydrich, but it could be in another country, twenty-thirty years from 1940? and that villain's faction might be far more successful than OTL Nazis in spreading something similar to fascism. They also have nowhere to return to. Israel they left is no more.
settle in 1940 Europe after leaving the 21st century? certainly, it's not the middle ages, but the lifestyle the had is gone. All of this led me to conclude: The price is way too high for a person that had serious research on how might the world change rather than just ''rid the world of Hitler'' simplicity. Every soldier fights as long as he sees a light at the end of the tunnel, here, there is no light. Only the hope, that the new reality will be better than the ''old'' one.

Every sane person that does not have an obsession with thoughts about ''killing Hitler'' will not go along with the act. They are from the 21st century, they have their lives there, not in 1940 Europe.

The problem is... the world IS going to be unrecognizable in this situation. You're preventing Barbarossa. Millions of Soviets, Germans, Poles, and others in central and eastern Europe that were supposed to die are now alive. This means millions of people who should or shouldn't have been born now have their existences switched. The Soviet Union might be tempted to advance eastward after a few years due to the chaos in Germany. The EU and other pan-European concepts postwar probably won't happen. And Israel itself may not exist without the impetus of the Holocaust. I don't deny that some kind of Jewish state may eventually take form, but it won't be the one these IDF soldiers left. As I said earlier - their achievement could be erasing their nation, and themselves, from history.

This. Herzl & Altneuland already happened but in the end, that matters a little.
A more prolonged British rule that lead to a far different creation? an early departure of the British leading to a war that somehow ends in another country (eg Egypt) taking all of Mandatory Palestine? These soldiers are to eliminating the society (21st century Israel) they knew by this act.

the timing of the ambush on the Führer's train – October 1940 – is carefully selected to forestall the most destructive portion of WWII - Barbarossa and the Shoah - while avoiding radical change that would leave the world utterly unrecognizable. It's a balancing act between change and continuity. How? But you'll just have to read it to find out!

To be honest, that sounds elementally incorrect. I understand the urge to save 6 million innocent people, but they have to recognize that the world will be utterly unrecognizable. The entire second half of the 20th century will be different. The ''recognition of the world'' scale is not radically higher or lower in 1940 Amerika or in 1920 Kapp's putsch or in 1914 Bavarian Army. In all of the outcomes of these scenarios, the 20th century will end in ways no one can truly know. so that logic sounds very sketchy and counterproductive.

This book is unapologetically Zionist and contains politically conservative themes. If you don't want to buy it, fine with me. I wouldn't dream of encouraging you to engage in such crass capitalist behaviour as actually engaging in a commercial transaction.

It is perfectly okay for your book to have an ideological message, but it should (at least in my opinion) be based on facts. For example, this act is a serious blow to Zionism (by sacrificing Israel for the prevention of the Holocaust).

But enough spoilers, except to mention the 40 Israeli special operators who end up marooned in German-occupied France of 1940 with their 21st-century weapons, comms, and a min-UAV. What do they do? You'll just have to pick up a copy of the book and find out!

listen, man, no one here has any bias towards you. You are dealing with people far more familiar with history, far more than most (indeed, I thought that I know history relative well, but it's nowhere near the level of many members here), and many of them have thought about such a scenario many times. It's no wonder they are quick to show you the book's plot holes or unreasonableness (at least that what they can see)


@Worffan101 means no disrespect to you personally, but to the lack of logic in your book. His language has always been a little dirty for my taste, but attacking his ideology for your book? You are a writer who is connected to his book, for his hard work, and here we show you (in our opinion) mistakes in this work, but please hold back and answer accordingly.

 

[Righteous Kill]

People ... read the friggin book when it comes out next month ... or don't. Then we can have a reasoned discussion on the plotline ... whether it's plausible or not. In the meantime, I have productive work to do finalising the publication which is due on 15 May.

Buy it ... read it ... then I'm happy to discuss. But responding to this belligerent a priori conclusion-jumping is simply a waste of time.

 

[Worffan101]

For example, this act is a serious blow to Zionism (by sacrificing Israel for the prevention of the Holocaust).

That could actually be a major dilemma for right-wing Israeli characters. In fact, if you want to get really out there, have one of the characters be a Palestinian nationalist who's helping the Mossad out of the belief that averting the Holocaust will avert the ethnic cleansing of his people in 1948/49, which would drive conflict with nationalist Israelis. Either way you still have to end with a bullet in Hitler's diseased brain, otherwise what's the point?

Alternatively, just make it a sort of time-travel technothriller where Mossad agents go up against a neo-Nazi cabal in the '30s and '40s where the Mossad agents are trying to kill Hitler and prevent the Holocaust (obviously they succeed in the end because if you're going to write a novel about killing Hitler, satisfy the goddamn audience and give us an epic battle culminating with a suitably dramatic execution of Hitler) and the neo-Nazis are trying to protect their "glorious leader". I would read the Hell out of that. Probably 5-6 main characters, a couple of downtimer sidekicks, one of them has personal beef with the neo-Nazis, etc. Some scenes for private musing about the ramifications of killing Hitler and potentially averting the creation of Israel, a dash of romance (downtimer/uptimer? Maybe romance within the time-displaced squad if they can't call home?), each big-name Nazi gets a whole chapter for his assassination (make it ironic if possible--Dirlewanger, Himmler, Heydrich, Göring, and Eichmann all deserve really humiliating/nasty deaths), lots and lots of dead Nazis, that sounds like a recipe for good wholesome Nazi-slaughtering fun.

 

[Resurgam]

Alternatively, just make it a sort of time-travel technothriller where Mossad agents go up against a neo-Nazi cabal in the '30s and '40s where the Mossad agents are trying to kill Hitler and prevent the Holocaust (obviously they succeed in the end because if you're going to write a novel about killing Hitler, satisfy the goddamn audience and give us an epic battle culminating with a suitably dramatic execution of Hitler) and the neo-Nazis are trying to protect their "glorious leader". I would read the Hell out of that. Probably 5-6 main characters, a couple of downtimer sidekicks, one of them has personal beef with the neo-Nazis, etc. Some scenes for private musing about the ramifications of killing Hitler and potentially averting the creation of Israel, a dash of romance (downtimer/uptimer? Maybe romance within the time-displaced squad if they can't call home?), each big-name Nazi gets a whole chapter for his assassination (make it ironic if possible--Dirlewanger, Himmler, Heydrich, Göring, and Eichmann all deserve really humiliating/nasty deaths), lots and lots of dead Nazis, that sounds like a recipe for good wholesome Nazi-slaughtering fun.

Honestly, you lose me in the bold part. You lose all the nuance and substance by doing that. If you really want that, it's already been written - it's called Wolfenstein.

I'd end the novel with the aforementioned killing of Hitler, and the assassin or assassins feeling... something as their actions reshape the timeline. What becomes of them, the world, and history being left to the reader to fear or imagine.

 

[Worffan101]

Honestly, you lose me in the bold part. You lose all the nuance and substance by doing that. If you really want that, it's already been written - it's called Wolfenstein.

I'd end the novel with the aforementioned killing of Hitler, and the assassin or assassins feeling... something as their actions reshape the timeline. What becomes of them, the world, and history being left to the reader to fear or imagine.

Fair enough. Honestly murdering the shit out of Nazis is kind of the point of a "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" book, though, so the more of it the better.