Richard of Gloucester has and older legitimate son

Through her mother she has family in the Counts of Saint Pol (her uncle Louis reigned til 1475), though they linked with the Burgundians (whom were allied to the Yorkists through the marriage of Margaret of York and Charles the Bold), so I'm not sure if fleeing in that direction is at all practicable.


Very true.

What do you make of the outline, or rather a brief commentary on the events so far?
 
Very true.

What do you make of the outline, or rather a brief commentary on the events so far?

Would Edward IV try and tempt Warwick back into the country with a Richard/Anne match? Couldn't he see that as a sign of weakness (Warwick defies and imprisons him, and then gets rewarded with a royal marriage)? If it does happen, Edward will probably resent Warwick for it and the "reconciliation" will deteriorate pretty quickly.

Maybe if you have it prompted by Edward hearing rumours that Warwick is plans on feeling out the Lancastrians- in which case it would be doubly effective (it gives Warwick the royal marriage he craved and removes a potential way for him to bind himself to the Lancastrian cause via marriage).

There's also the possibility that Warwick doesn't care about the Richard/Anne marriage, his quarrels with Edward go far deeper than just his daughter's marriages- the Woodvilles, whether to seek an alliance with France or Burgundy, the Woodvilles, the promotion of new men like Devon and Pembroke among the king's advisors (both of whom were killed after Edgecote), the Woodvilles, Warwick's brother Bishop George having his authority curtailed, and, most importantly, the Woodvilles.

It's entirely possible he'd view his relationship with Edward as untenable, or fear that it's a trap of some sort. Of course, Warwick could pretend to reconcile with Edward on the basis of the marriage as a means to get back into England and continue plotting.
 
I've got a question.Would Richard's son marry his cousins?I'd imagine it's somewhat more acceptable socially to cousins to marry than for uncles marrying their niece.That will screw Henry Tudor's Yorkist support I suppose.
 
Would Edward IV try and tempt Warwick back into the country with a Richard/Anne match? Couldn't he see that as a sign of weakness (Warwick defies and imprisons him, and then gets rewarded with a royal marriage)? If it does happen, Edward will probably resent Warwick for it and the "reconciliation" will deteriorate pretty quickly.

Maybe if you have it prompted by Edward hearing rumours that Warwick is plans on feeling out the Lancastrians- in which case it would be doubly effective (it gives Warwick the royal marriage he craved and removes a potential way for him to bind himself to the Lancastrian cause via marriage).

There's also the possibility that Warwick doesn't care about the Richard/Anne marriage, his quarrels with Edward go far deeper than just his daughter's marriages- the Woodvilles, whether to seek an alliance with France or Burgundy, the Woodvilles, the promotion of new men like Devon and Pembroke among the king's advisors (both of whom were killed after Edgecote), the Woodvilles, Warwick's brother Bishop George having his authority curtailed, and, most importantly, the Woodvilles.

It's entirely possible he'd view his relationship with Edward as untenable, or fear that it's a trap of some sort. Of course, Warwick could pretend to reconcile with Edward on the basis of the marriage as a means to get back into England and continue plotting.

Hmm very true, and some very interesting observations there. Which option is more likely do you think, Warwick remaining in an uncertain exile, or coming back home to try and start again. Of course, I was thinking of going with Edward IV arranging the marriage so as to quash Warwick's attempts to go over to the Lancastrian side.

I've got a question.Would Richard's son marry his cousins?I'd imagine it's somewhat more acceptable socially to cousins to marry than for uncles marrying their niece.That will screw Henry Tudor's Yorkist support I suppose.

Potentially, though if things go as they did otl, Elizabeth and her sisters would be considered illegtitimate no?
 
How's this sound:

Late 1469, after being restored to the throne and governance of the realm properly, Edward IV decides to listen to his brother Richard of Gloucester, and agrees to allow the man's wedding to Anne Neville, daughter of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, the man who had imprisoned Edward. The marriage is arranged after Edward hears rumours and whisperings that Warwick is thinking of siding with the Lancastrians, and as such, the marriage between Richard and Anne takes place in November, 1469. However, not all is well between Warwick and his former prodigy the King, resentment is high, Warwick resents the influence of the Woodvilles, whilst Edward does not trust his former mentor and friend. Eventually, things begin boiling over, and Warwick attempts to flee from his estates and make for france.
 
Potentially, though if things go as they did otl, Elizabeth and her sisters would be considered illegtitimate no?

Well, Richard supposedly wanted to marry her IOTL to bolster his own claim, despite the fact that her illegitimacy (and that of her brothers) was the very reason he used to justify taking the throne in the first place. It never made much sense to me as it fails logic-wise and seems to undermine Richard's throne (both by questioning the legal justification of Richard's kingship and seeming repulsive to people), rather than support it, so I'm not entirely convinced it actually happened or if it did how seriously Richard would of considered it (though I'm a Ricardian who is still in denial over the whole Princes in the Tower). I suppose if he felt desperate and wasn't necessarily thinking straight he may of thought there was something to be gained from it (presumably as a means to mollify the Woodvilles and their supporters).

Anyhow, if Richard did consider marrying Elizabeth himself IOTL then it's almost a certainty that he'll consider Elizabeth for his son ITTL (especially because a cousin marriage is more appropriate than an uncle-niece one). However, IOTL Richard was dissuaded by two of his principle supporters (Ratcliffe and Catesby)- they said it would cause rebellions but many think they were worried that if Elizabeth became Queen she'd seek retribution for their part in her family's downfall. So the question is whether they'd be equally apprehensive about Elizabeth marrying the Prince of Wales, and if so whether they'd still be successful in persuading Richard not to pursue the marriage.
 
Well, Richard supposedly wanted to marry her IOTL to bolster his own claim, despite the fact that her illegitimacy (and that of her brothers) was the very reason he used to justify taking the throne in the first place. It never made much sense to me as it fails logic-wise and seems to undermine Richard's throne (both by questioning the legal justification of Richard's kingship and seeming repulsive to people), rather than support it, so I'm not entirely convinced it actually happened or if it did how seriously Richard would of considered it (though I'm a Ricardian who is still in denial over the whole Princes in the Tower). I suppose if he felt desperate and wasn't necessarily thinking straight he may of thought there was something to be gained from it (presumably as a means to mollify the Woodvilles and their supporters).

Anyhow, if Richard did consider marrying Elizabeth himself IOTL then it's almost a certainty that he'll consider Elizabeth for his son ITTL (especially because a cousin marriage is more appropriate than an uncle-niece one). However, IOTL Richard was dissuaded by two of his principle supporters (Ratcliffe and Catesby)- they said it would cause rebellions but many think they were worried that if Elizabeth became Queen she'd seek retribution for their part in her family's downfall. So the question is whether they'd be equally apprehensive about Elizabeth marrying the Prince of Wales, and if so whether they'd still be successful in persuading Richard not to pursue the marriage.
Why would that happen?Why the heck did Richard listen to such BS?In who's name would they be rebelling?It makes no sense for people to be rebelling over Richard or his son marrying Elizabeth if they didn't do so already.If someone wants to rebel,they would do so regardless or whether Richard or his son marries Elizabeth.The only problem as we've both mentioned was that it's not socially acceptable for an uncle to marry his niece,so Richard having an older son changes the equation significantly.
 
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Well, Richard supposedly wanted to marry her IOTL to bolster his own claim, despite the fact that her illegitimacy (and that of her brothers) was the very reason he used to justify taking the throne in the first place. It never made much sense to me as it fails logic-wise and seems to undermine Richard's throne (both by questioning the legal justification of Richard's kingship and seeming repulsive to people), rather than support it, so I'm not entirely convinced it actually happened or if it did how seriously Richard would of considered it (though I'm a Ricardian who is still in denial over the whole Princes in the Tower). I suppose if he felt desperate and wasn't necessarily thinking straight he may of thought there was something to be gained from it (presumably as a means to mollify the Woodvilles and their supporters).

Anyhow, if Richard did consider marrying Elizabeth himself IOTL then it's almost a certainty that he'll consider Elizabeth for his son ITTL (especially because a cousin marriage is more appropriate than an uncle-niece one). However, IOTL Richard was dissuaded by two of his principle supporters (Ratcliffe and Catesby)- they said it would cause rebellions but many think they were worried that if Elizabeth became Queen she'd seek retribution for their part in her family's downfall. So the question is whether they'd be equally apprehensive about Elizabeth marrying the Prince of Wales, and if so whether they'd still be successful in persuading Richard not to pursue the marriage.

Aye that does seem quite flimsy, perhaps the marriage might've brought on people pretending to be Edward V or Richard of Shrewsbury?

Why would that happen?Why the heck did Richard listen to such BS?In who's name would they be rebelling?It makes no sense for people to be rebelling over Richard or his son marrying Elizabeth if they didn't do so already.If someone wants to rebel,they would do so regardless or whether Richard or his son marries Elizabeth.The only problem as we've both mentioned was that it's not socially acceptable for an uncle to marry his niece,so Richard having an older son changes the equation significantly.

Possible risk of pretenders?
 
Aye that does seem quite flimsy, perhaps the marriage might've brought on people pretending to be Edward V or Richard of Shrewsbury?



Possible risk of pretenders?
What usurpers?Supporters of Edward IV and his children would rebel regardless if they are given the opportunity except if Richard got rid of Edward IV's children entirely.While Lancastrians are Lancastrians,they are gonna rebel regardless,and you might undercut their support if you either get rid of Edward IV's daughters or married the oldest.

The political elite ain't daft.Except for idiots,the lot of them probably knows that the whole Edward IV and Lady Talbot thing was total bullshit.
 
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What usurpers?Supporters of Edward IV and his children would rebel regardless if they are given the opportunity except if Richard got rid of Edward IV's children entirely.While Lancastrians are Lancastrians,they are gonna rebel regardless,and you might undercut their support if you either get rid of Edward IV's daughters or married the oldest.

The political elite ain't daft.Except for idiots,the lot of them probably knows that the whole Edward IV and Lady Talbot thing was total bullshit.

Indeed, yet, people could well rebel in the name of Edward V etc, that they didn't suggests wider discontent with Woodvilles than anything else I suppose.

And indeed, marrying Edward, Richard's son to Elizabeth would make sense, though then what would people use to justify removing Edward V and Richard to the tower, unless you make complete use of the precontract.
 
Indeed, yet, people could well rebel in the name of Edward V etc, that they didn't suggests wider discontent with Woodvilles than anything else I suppose.

And indeed, marrying Edward, Richard's son to Elizabeth would make sense, though then what would people use to justify removing Edward V and Richard to the tower, unless you make complete use of the precontract.
Not sure how you can justify that.
 
Indeed, which was why the precontract story was used, and even then it was pretty flimsy, and why Richard lost support no?
I'm saying why would Richard's son marrying Elizabeth justify removing the two princes from the tower?If someone actually makes such a suggestion,it's actually a good thing,it allows Richard to accurately identify who's actually against him and eliminate them accordingly.

Everyone knows that the Eleanor Talbot thing was total bullshit,and anyone who even makes a suggestion like that is clearly an enemy of Richard and should be eliminated accordingly.
 
I'm saying why would Richard's son marrying Elizabeth justify removing the two princes from the tower?If someone actually makes such a suggestion,it's actually a good thing,it allows Richard to accurately identify who's actually against him and eliminate them accordingly.

Ah you misunderstood me, I was saying that removing Edward and Richard to the tower was a sign of their illegitimacy, as far as I can understand from what I've read, after the precontract was revealed, and that it therefore influenced how Edward IV's children by Elizabeth Woodville were seen. Sorry about that.

And indeed.
 
Ah you misunderstood me, I was saying that removing Edward and Richard to the tower was a sign of their illegitimacy, as far as I can understand from what I've read, after the precontract was revealed, and that it therefore influenced how Edward IV's children by Elizabeth Woodville were seen. Sorry about that.

And indeed.
To my knowledge,the two were moved to the tower even before the whole Eleanor Talbot thing,supposedly for their own safety until Edward could be crowned.

After the whole Eleanor Talbot episode,everyone knows that Richard's keeping the two there just like how Edward IV kept Henry VI there.
 
To my knowledge,the two were moved to the tower even before the whole Eleanor Talbot thing,supposedly for their own safety until Edward could be crowned.

Aye they were, keeping them there simply seemed the normal thing after the whole Eleanor Talbot thing came out.

But yes, would it make sense for Richard's son Edward to marry Elizabeth then?
 
Aye they were, keeping them there simply seemed the normal thing after the whole Eleanor Talbot thing came out.

But yes, would it make sense for Richard's son Edward to marry Elizabeth then?
Because Henry Tudor's promising to marry Elizabeth?It's pretty clear that at that moment,most people probably knows that the two princes are probably dead.Why else would Yorkist supporters rally to Henry Tudor if he promised to marry Elizabeth?
 
Because Henry Tudor's promising to marry Elizabeth?It's pretty clear that at that moment,most people probably knows that the two princes are probably dead.Why else would Yorkist supporters rally to Henry Tudor if he promised to marry Elizabeth?

Very true, very true.
 
Very true, very true.
And to have a better claim than Warwick as well.Richard and his son's claims were flimsy as fuck.Unless they plan to get rid all of his older brothers' children,marrying Elizabeth is probably the best option,as you only need to get rid of Edward V and his younger brother.Otherwise,in a couple of generations,you are in for another War of the Roses.
 
And to have a better claim than Warwick as well.Richard and his son's claims were flimsy as fuck.Unless they plan to get rid all of his older brothers' children,marrying Elizabeth is probably the best option,as you only need to get rid of Edward V and his younger brother.Otherwise,in a couple of generations,you are in for another War of the Roses.

Oh indeed.

So yeah, with regards to the initial outline I'd highlighted before, what do you make of that?
 
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