Richard III wins at Bosworth - what happens to Edward IV's daughters with Elizabeth Woodville?
- Thread starter HortenseMancini
- Start date
Richard III of England b 1452 d 1505 m a)Anne Neville b 1456 d 1485, b)Joanna of Portugal b 1452 d 1490, c)Jeanne de Bourbon b 1465 d 1511
Issue:
a) Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales b 1473 d 1484
b) Richard IV of England b 1486 d 1530 m Catherine of Aragon b 1485 d 1535
Anne of England b 1487 m James IV of Scotland b 1473 d 1520
c) Edward, Duke of York b 1493
Edmund, Duke of Glouchester b 1495
Joanna of England b 1498
Issue:
a) Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales b 1473 d 1484
b) Richard IV of England b 1486 d 1530 m Catherine of Aragon b 1485 d 1535
Anne of England b 1487 m James IV of Scotland b 1473 d 1520
c) Edward, Duke of York b 1493
Edmund, Duke of Glouchester b 1495
Joanna of England b 1498
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Richard III, King of England (1452-1508) married a) Anne Neville (1456-1485), b) Joanna of Portugal (1452-1489), c) Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1477)
*eldest daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Elizabeth of York
**son of James IV of Scotland by Anne de la Pole
- a) Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales (1476-1485)
- c) Richard IV, King of England (b. 1492) married Isabella of Portugal (b. 1488)*
- c) Anne of England (b. 1495) married James V, King of Scotland (b. 1493)**
- c) Margaret of England (b. 1498) married Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500)
- c) Edward, Duke of Brittany (b. 1502) married Isabella of Austria (b. 1501)
*eldest daughter of Manuel I of Portugal and Elizabeth of York
**son of James IV of Scotland by Anne de la Pole
I do not think who Richard III would be inclined to marry the daughter of Edward IV to any of their cousin (including their maternal ones) and Arundel‘s mother is one of Elizabet Woodville‘s sisters. And with Lincoln, his heir presumptive, already married to Arundel’s daughter, Richard III has no reason at all for give Catherine of York to Arundel’s heir
IIRC she had a stillbirth/miscarriage in 1488 and another in 1490
Ah, I do not knew that... then either of that pregnancy can result in a living son
Isabella I of Castile b 1451 d 1503 m Ferdinand II of Aragon b 1452 d 1516
Issue:
-Isabella of Aragon, b 1470 d 1498 m a)Alfonso, Crown Prince of Portugal b 1475 d 1491, b)Manuel I of Portugal b 1469 d 1521
-Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona b 1478 d 1497 m Margaret of Austria b 1480 d 1530
-Juana of Castile b 1479 d 1550 m Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor b 1478 d 1527
-Maria of Castile b 1482 d 1520 m Manuel I of Portugal b 1469 d 1521
-Catherine of Aragon b 1485 d 1535 m Richard IV of England b 1486 d 1530
-Ferdinand VI of Castile and III of Aragon b 1488 d 1539 m a)Germaine of Foix b 1488 d 1510, b) Marguerite of France b 1492 d 1549
-Infante Alfonso b 1490 d 1506
I have a tangentially related question, in this scenario what would be the relative status of the King's other nieces? Since the de la Poles had no scandals I would assume that they would be high-status brides. But what about Anne St. Leger and Margaret of Clarence? Would their husbands be of higher status than the York girls? Would Richard trust them enough to use them to form alliances with other factions, or would he only marry them to staunch loyalists who he didn't see as a threat?
I have seen some suggest the de la Poles would be used as proxies, some going to Scotland and what not. Anne St Leger’s inheritance was confiscated by Richard IIRC, so she’d probably be married off to a loyal retainer. Margaret of Clarence might also meet the same fate as Anne St Leger.
Edward of Warwick might be kept around for a few years just in case he has to succeed Richard, and maybe later executed like in OTL.
Considering his legitimate son is dead, he should be careful; he could consider his nieces as a means of continuing the legacy, but at the same time if he does that he basically refutes what made him king in the first place(namely Edward IV's issues were illegitimate). So he's going to be wondering what to do with them until he finds a new queen.
Well at least Cecily and Anne were already married off by Richard by the time of Bosworth but he's definitely not marrying off Elizabeth until he feels assured of having a healthy son in the cradle. I am hugely in favor of Richard's proposed double match with Portugal going through - Elizabeth of York marries Manuel of Viseu, Richard marries Infanta Joana - because it solves two of his problems at once by (a) squaring away Elizabeth of York and (b) providing him with a new bride, who also happens to come with foreign connections.
What's interesting is, if Richard does have a healthy, surviving son with Joana then I'm not sure how likely he is to survive until the boy's majority...the only immediate male family member of his who died a natural death was Edward IV and he only died in his early 40s, though he also had a reputation as a glutton in more than one way. Richard was probably much more health conscious, but IIRC his remains did indicate that his diet became more indulgent in the later years of his life IOTL (so probably after he became king).
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I always imagine Richard living into his early 50s for some reason. Yes, he had health issues, but I doubt he'd glutton to the extent of his brother. Plus their mother managed to live into her 80s, which could say something about how long-lived Richard could be.
If he is indeed dead in his early 50s, he probably dies about 1505 (as I think an earlier tree on this thread suggested) and assuming he has a son by 1489 (which is entirely possible) then his son is in his majority or very close to it by the time Richard dies.
I find unlikely who Richard will have children by Joana, but she will most likely die soon leaving him free to remarry again and having heirs (Elizabeth of York will surely go in Portugal as bride of Manuel once Joana arrived in England). If Richard has no heir of his own then John de la Pole will be his successor
To be fair, in any scenario I can't see them having more than two or maybe three kids, almost certainly with at least one dying in childhood. I just think it would be interesting to see how things progress if Afonso, Prince of Portugal still dies in 1491, as he could still have his horse accident and die even without Fernando's...intervention.
Joana had likely bad health and extreme religion, so I can not see her able to live longer than OTL in England or survive to a pregnancy
When Joanna dies, probably childless, I wonder who Richard would push for as his third wife. Part of me thinks he'd probably cut his losses and start setting up John de la Pole as his successor for real, and if Margaret FitzAlan hasn't been able to have any more children, pushing to annul that marriage and set his heir up with either a surviving York girl, or barring that, whichever of-age foreign Princess is most likely to keep that in check. But if he did remarry, in the early 1490s, he might go for Joanna of Naples, who'd be around 12 when Joanna of Portugal dies, or maybe try for Anne of Brittany, if she's still available (probably fails but it's a possibility).
As for the York girls, as has been said, by 1485 it's only really Catherine and Bridget who are unaccounted for. Catherine might be kept around as that spare bride for the Earl of Lincoln, and Bridget probably gets to go to the Church as OTL, although probably a few years later.
As for the York girls, as has been said, by 1485 it's only really Catherine and Bridget who are unaccounted for. Catherine might be kept around as that spare bride for the Earl of Lincoln, and Bridget probably gets to go to the Church as OTL, although probably a few years later.
He needs a bride who can give him a child asap so idk if he would be willing to wait for a 12 year old who is at least three or four years away from being able to safely give birth...